Welcome to Episode 65. This episode will appeal to two types of people.1) If you're already working in agency account management, but you're super ambitious, and you just want to see where your account management skills can take you in your career, or2) you're an agency owner, and you want to scale your businessToday's guest is Danny Turnbull. Danny helps independent agencies grow their business, but he started his career in account management. He moved through the ranks of account management to various agency leadership roles and has ended up consulting with agency business owners.Dan talks to us about his career path and what helped him on his career path, and some revelations about what accelerated his career. But he also shares:- some of the challenges agencies are facing right now- his view on whether working from home works for agencies- and also why he encourages agencies to consider a pod structure business model.If you're an agency owner, and you haven't joined the free agency owner community, Agencynomics, or read the book, then go over to agencynomics.com, and you can find out a lot more about that. And if you'd like to chat to me about agency account management training, please go over to my training page where you can find details of my next Account Accelerator programme, starting in September. Transcript:Jenny 00:03So today, I'm delighted that Danny Turnbull has joined me. Danny is a managing consultant at Cactus Growth Consultancy, which Dan is going to tell us a bit more about in a minute. He's spent 30 years in agencies and held many roles, including heading up large agencies, both in the UK and Europe. He's also worked as a non-exec director, a consultant and mentor to a number of agencies. He's a commercially trained economist and he is MBA qualified. Dan, a massive warm welcome to you. Danny 00:42Thank you, Jenny. And thanks so much for having me on today's podcast, it's an absolute pleasure and a privilege to join you. My father always told me that flattery will get you anywhere. So, I just wanted to say I love your podcasts and all of my clients who work with you, consultancy services, speak exceptionally highly of you. So, it's a real honour to be with you today. So, thank you. Jenny 01:04You're so kind and your flattery has totally worked because I feel like I'm blushing. Thank you, Danny. Danny 01:13It was it's all true! Jenny 01:15Oh, well I love working with you guys as well. It's such a vibe. Agencynomics is such a vibrant community of engaged agency leaders and I love working with all of them as well. It's been fabulous. So, Danny, can we kick off by just telling us a bit about you? And maybe a bit about your background? And also, how you work with agencies for Cactus? Danny 01:39Yes, sure. I'll try not to talk too much because it's a very long story. I'm 51 in just over a month and I've been in the agency business, as you say, a very long time, in fact, since 1992, when I joined an agency called CAS or Commercial Advertising Services as a trainee account executive just after I left uni. I seem to recall that when you and I chatted previously when we finally met for the first time at the launch of our book last year, we chatted about having been in the business a similar amount of time, but I realise that's not a very good reminder! Jenny 02:14You've exposed my age! Danny 02:26As you say, I've been in the business for 30 years, since the early 90s. I, unfortunately, missed the halcyon days of British advertising when agencies like Saatchi's literally led the world. But it was those days and the American Mad Men era of Bernbach and Co that went before that, that inspired me to choose this as a career. And to be honest, it might be a bit sad this, but it's all I ever really wanted to do. Some kids grow up wanting to be an astronaut or a fireman or cowboy. I only ever wanted to be an ad man. I think maybe that was because my father was a marketing professor, and I just wasn't clever enough to follow him into academia. And I found the whole conjoint analysis, MSC stuff really, really boring. And I was far more attracted to fast cars, long lunches and photoshoots. And yes, they really were once a thing in our sector weren't they Jenny? Jenny 03:18Good old days. Danny 03:22The truth was actually a little less racy. The early 90s was the middle of a big recession and we had 32% graduate unemployment. But, after a lot of applications and some very good fortune, I was taken on by CAS, an agency in Manchester, which at its peak employed 140 people across advertising, printing, research, PR and photographic businesses. Agency was established in 1914 so it was one of the very first agencies in the UK and the first specialist B2B agency. So, I left for the office on my first day, my dad said to me (I was still living with my parents at that tender young age), make me two promises. The first is never, ever fiddle your expenses as that's how you'll get end up getting fired if somebody wants to get rid of you and number 2, please just get out of agencies before you're 30 because they're a young person's business. And so, that day at work my new boss, if he's listening now, a chap called Martin Milner gave me the keys to a Lancia Dedra Quad Cam. I don't expect anybody listening to this to know what that is, but Google it, it's a very quick car. He then took me to the local BP garage and Didsbury and showed me how by using your fuel card you could get 200 Marlboro lights. So, I failed on the first promise on day one and the second one didn't work either as I'm still in it at 50. But my dad was, as you have probably already picked up, was a huge driving force in my life and still is, although sadly he passed away a couple of years ago. So, it played on my mind all the way through my 20s. And I worked up through AE, junior AE, Senior AE, Account Manager, across a couple of agencies, worked in B2C, worked in healthcare. Then I decided that I was getting close to 30 so I should really fulfil my promise to my father. So, I did get a job client side working in a financial services business. Then I handed in my notice and my employer persuaded me to change my mind. They explained that they had a three/four year plan to sell that agency business and that they wanted me to be part of that. They needed a team in place, they needed an MD. And as part of that negotiation, they agreed to retrain me as an MD, so they paid for me to do an MBA which was super cool. It was a three year and £30,000 investment even back then. They put in place a non-exec to mentor me and a four-year career plan and that started out with taking on the CSD role, where I had 19 staff and four million of revenue. By the way, I would say for anyone listening that the MBA was the single best thing I ever did. I strongly recommend anyone listening to consider something similar. I think investing in or getting an employer, even smarter, to invest in your personal development is a really smart move. So, I've done IOD certified directorship, I've done Google squared digital leadership, I've done coaching badges, I've done some presentation skills training, which clearly didn't work as you can probably figure out today and some negotiation skills training. We're getting to the end of this elongated story now, so fast forward five years, we sold the business to Gyro the world's largest B2B agency. That's where Pete, Spencer and I met, their Blue Halo business was acquired and a short while after, Cicero. So, I think it's fair to say that account management's been really good to me. In fact, I think I've been blessed in my career. But when Gyro took over the business, Cicero previously CS, I was doing the job of an MD and I was doing that job in the evenings and in the day, I was doing a group account directors job. When I look back now, I think how stupid it was because I was doing like 10 o'clock most nights, working Sundays, which I still do now because old habits die hard, taking 12 days holiday a year. And when I first met with Gary Bryan, who was my boss and Spencer's boss in 2008, he said, You can't do both jobs, you've got three months to hire a group of account directs and transition the clients across and so I think two years after making that promise to my dad, I was finally able to fulfil it. And that was the end of my account handling days. The truth is, whilst I was an MD for 15 years across three different businesses, I always kept in an account handling hand because you really need to stay close to your clients. And so to finish the story, I'll bring it up to present day, I'd always intended to be a non-exec director, which was a plan that I accelerated under COVID, and when I joined Cactus, an Agencynomics team - a quick commercial break here - we are the UK leading agency growth advisory firm, we've worked with 1000s of agencies over the last 10 years from a few 100,000 revenue to 5 million to help them grow, we have commercial breakdown, we have an Amazon bestselling book called Agencynomics, we have an online community with 1500 members, including your good self and I'm partnered with Mark Probert, who I think is a previous guest of yours on the on this podcast. Together, we work across a range of agency clients working with their founders and their teams to help them to thrive and survive and to grow. Outside of Cactus I also mentor and coach people in and around our space. And I think what that allows me to do is sort of keep my promise to my dad, but still stay involved in something that I love dearly. That's the long, short story! Jenny 09:18I love it. I love it. And I love the fact that you always wanted to do it Danny as well, that just sounds ideal. I mean, you've worked client side, you've worked agency side in various roles and we're going to go back to your account management experience a little bit later because I'm really keen to dive into that and find out what you believe best practice is and maybe share some tips with the audience who are predominantly account managers. But before we do that, I wanted to pick up on another point that you said which I thought was brilliant advice, the investment you made into yourself in the form of the MBA which probably was a huge investment for the agency at that time. Is that partly why you educate agency owners now and you've got your sort of mini-MBA that you're doing with Cactus, aren't you? You're giving the agency owners I'm sure a lot of what you've learned, which is then infused into that training. Danny 10:22I think we're all great believers in continuous learning. But the MBA, if you think back, sort of deeply philosophical point, but if you think about the UK, the UK is a bit like the football industry who think that people who are good footballers will make good managers. And that's patently proved to not be the case again and again. And so, in the UK, and it's not just distinct to advertising, but we are particularly bad at this. We think that our star performers in the business will make great leaders and they won't when they're not properly trained. If you look in parallel across to Europe, if you look at France, if you look at Germany or if you look across the Atlantic where the NBA was born, they train their managers. And so, you know, I wasn't joking, when I handed in my notice at CAS at the time, part of that negotiation, it was a hard negotiation, was I don't want to run a 60-person, £6 million business, with no training, at 30 years old. I need training. So, I'm a great, great sponsor of formal training, whatever that vehicle is. Jenny 11:38If you had to boil it down to one of the most key things it gave you, would you be able to think what that was? Danny 11:47Yes, it gave me insomnia! It's a true story. How many hours were you working when you worked in agencies? Jenny 12:00Like, all hours. But I was like you, Danny, I loved it. And I thrived in that environment. Hence the reason I never had children because I never had time. But yes, lots of hours. Danny 12:15So, to do an MBA and to do it properly, they say that it will take you between 12 and 28 hours a week. So, if you run the maths on that. One of the first things that they teach you, one of the first units is (this is going to show my age now), they teach us how to use Excel, because Excel is a new thing, honestly, on PowerPoint. But there's a module on time management. And they tell you how to segment, to add time. And again, I'm using humour to illustrate a point, where they teach you how to sleep deprive yourself. To wake up earlier go to sleep later. And the thing about the MBA is, I'll try not to get too sidetracked on this, but MBA is a generalist degree. So, it covers everything from strategy to finance to operations to health safety. So, it's not particularly intellectually rigorous, but it's relentless. So, you've got three years of it, and it doesn't stop. You don't get a break. So, it did give me insomnia, but it also teaches you a work ethic. It makes you loads and loads of contacts and most of the people doing those things, certainly on the one that I did, were from big blue-chip businesses - United biscuits, Unilever and P&G. Jenny 13:34Which are handy contacts to have, no doubt? Danny 13:36Yes, and also, I think, one of the other reasons I've worked in agencies all my life is because I'm a big child and because I like to just play and be involved in exciting creative things. And so, an MBA kind of forces you to grow up as well. Jenny 13:50Great point. So listen, let's turn our attention to you working with agency owners because agency owners also tune in to this. I would love to hear from your point of view, some of the typical challenges you see that agency owners are facing, particularly when it comes to growth and expansion of their businesses? Danny 14:10I've worked with or engaged with, well over 100 agencies in the last two years and I've been exposed to many, many more through the community. The growth challenges that agencies face are extremely common and they're also not that difficult to solve. I think one of the biggest issues for independent agencies who are quite early in their growth journeys and they're trying to move up past that glass ceiling of their first million of revenue is that they, the founders, the owners and management team, they're so busy that they're in the reeds of firefighting and they don't get time to step back and see the bigger issues. They're not impossible to spot but when you're that close to it, you can't see them. They also don't have the time or the energy to address them. Allied to that, growing agencies, below £1.2/1.3 million revenue, don't have the luxury of fully formed leadership teams to support the owner. So, they don't have that administrative infrastructure that usually comes with size- talented staff, financial staff, marketing staff, new business staff. So, what that means is that the owners or owners end up doing it all. And everyone knows the adage about Jack of all trades, and what that does. We describe that as the challenge of working in not on their business and it's why having a dispassionate, that doesn't mean we don't care of course, but having a dispassionate external adviser can be really transformative for agency owners. Some of the other themes we see is that agency structures grow without planning. I'm sure you've seen this all the time? Teams grow incrementally and they naturally follow hierarchical patterns because everyone wants that progression, and everyone wants to be a boss but there are huge advantages to flat structures. We encourage all of our clients, we've been doing this for 10 years and it came from the digital space, it came from Pete and Spencer at Blue Halo, we encourage all of our clients to put pod systems in place because we think that they give huge benefits to agencies in terms of enabling growth. I think a lot of people think that pods are focused purely on client services teams but it's about how you structure an AD alongside a PM and the way that we model them and the way that we implement them is they impact the entire agency structure.
Another thing that we often say is what we call 'The cobblers shoes phenomenon'. Marketing agencies are so busy doing their client work, particularly now when we've been through an intense period of overheating in our market, they forget to do their own marketing. So again, as external advisors, we would describe ourselves as sort of agency, fitness coaches, and we hold our clients to account to do that. We ask them to allocate a percentage of their revenue to this, between 3 and 5%. We ask them to work with specialist providers, so branding specialists, LinkedIn specialists and we provide them with all the tools and assets to do that.
So those are not the only issues, but they're some of the most common that we encounter. And I think, at a macro level, agencies have always been a barometer for the overall economy. So, they're the first in to and first out of recession. So, agencies got hit really, really hard by the pandemic in early 2020 but I'm delighted to say that nearly all of them, starting within the indie space, were back to pre-COVID trade level by 2021. We all know that we've been in the middle of a talent crisis for the past 12 months, 14 months. So, hiring staff to deliver is the current number one challenge for agencies but I think that will pass. So, I would say to agencies, whilst it's painful, I'd enjoy it and make hay while the sun shines because it's what my father would call 'high class property'. Jenny 18:10Absolutely. Danny, could we talk a little bit more about the pod structure? So, can you, first of all, explain what you mean by the pod structure? And have you seen that it works better for some types of agencies than others? Danny 18:27
So, pod structure, in its most simple purest sense, is based around separating out account managers or account directors from project managers. If you think back to when you and I started out, there was that sequential progression wasn't there? You would cut your teeth as a trainee executive, would work your way up and then when you got to be an account director, you develop strategic skills and presentational skills and commercials skills. Well, the truth is, this is why it's got its roots in the digital space, they're totally different skill sets. You can go on that journey like you, and I did but if you think about what agencies are delivering now, as opposed to what they were delivering in 1992, they need dedicated specialist project managers, people who are properly trained. And so, the pod system is about separating out those roles. So, you've got an AD or an AM who owns the client book, who owns the forecast or the budget for those clients, that owns the strategic relationships. And that's dead important because what that's designed to do is stop the founder and owner getting sucked back into that. And then a better project manager to own and drive the work for the agency instead of it being owned by a central operations function or traffic management function. So, all of the ownership sits in the pod.
A pod can be three people or four people or five people, usually a third member will be a subject matter expert. So, in creative agencies, as I've worked for previously, that would be a brand planner or creative strategist. Jenny 20:07How have you found the adoption rate? What percentage of agencies say, 'Yes, this makes absolute sense.' Have you seen that it works for a type of discipline, for example, a marketing discipline, more than others? Danny 20:26So, the obvious answer to that is it works better in the digital space because that's where its roots are and that's where digital pods first came from. But then you'd argue that any agency is a digital agency nowadays. And we've got PR clients, we got events clients, we've got app dev clients, we've got traditional brand and creative clients and all of them have adapted or adopted pod systems successfully. But don't be under any illusion, it's difficult. It's difficult to execute. And often what we find is that people rush into it, or they lose their nerve, or they don't carry the team with them. I'm sure you've had more experience than I have in dealing with this, which is why you're asking! Jenny 21:17I am and this is where my questions are coming from because I am absolutely 100% an advocate for separating the AM and PM role because what I found is the account management team can focus a lot more on adding client value, understanding the commercial objectives of the client company. It tends to facilitate growth of the accounts so much more easily. I've seen very talented account managers with the hybrid role, who are totally bogged down in project management tasks, timelines, cost estimates, resourcing, things like that. And before you know it, the day's gone and they just haven't done anything meaningful in terms of growing the account or adding value to the client. So, I'm a huge, huge advocate. But there are things that come up, there are little insight insights that I glean from account managers in general who are very keen on career progression. They're very keen to get that title, from Senior Account Manager to Director to Senior Account Director - the traditional path. Danny 22:26We're all hardwired like that which is why hierarchies are so pervasive. Jenny 22:31So, I'm keen to get your learnings or your help in how you implement the pod structure because actually what you're saying is, it will function much better if it's a flat structure. Danny 22:46It's flat from an organisational perspective, I know this sounds like mental gymnastics, but if you think about it, it's a step and repeat growth model. So, it says, we will be doomed to continue to repeat ourselves, repeat our mistakes and the owner gets sucked back in until we can get ownership for that client book and its growth sat within the pod. And once you've done that the pod can grow. And then it becomes sort of responsible for its own destiny. I know it's a glib answer to your question which was basically, 'Does it not stifle career progression?' And the answer is no, because you can grow that pod. When I was at Gyro, Manchester for 15 years, we had pods that were doing £2 million and that's bigger than most agencies that are in Agencynomics. So, is that not enough career progression for you? Jenny 23:38It's like running your own business unit, isn't it, effectively? Danny 23:40If you think about Havas in Manchester, they're a brilliant example of that. I shouldn't say the best agency in Manchester, but they're certainly the largest at 400 odd staff. They're structured with agencies within and because they operate in the pharma space as well so they've got lots of competes, so they create Chinese walls around their clients. But each of their agencies is headed up by an MD, CSD. And so, they've got turbocharged pods. Jenny 24:11So actually, it really does give you career progression and also exposure to running your own mini business within a larger business because you've got to be really good at forecasting, looking at the numbers, projections, etc. Danny 24:26Somebody I was talking to on Friday about this, a very senior lady I've worked with for a number of years, said taking on a role like this is like an MD-lite job. Jenny 24:37Great point, but with the infrastructure around you to support you. So actually, hopefully, a few light bulbs are going off in the heads of some people listening who might be in that position. Maybe they are CSD already, maybe they are wanting to follow that career path. So, great, great point. Danny 24:58Just to rewind, I think it is an important point you were asking about, when the pod journey has failed or when there are problems with it. That usually happens when the team isn't properly consulted because everyone is fearful of change, people don't like change. And so, we advocate that people are properly consulted and it's done in a timely manner. We would say six to eight months. Don't rush in and try and do it next week. Jenny 25:28That's really good advice as well, actually. And it goes probably, for a lot of things that we do in agencies. Even with recruitment, I know we're going off tangent a little bit, but even with recruiting a new person into the team, it inevitably puts, not a cat amongst the pigeons that's probably too negative, but other people are affected by any new team member joining. So why wouldn't you make them part of the recruitment process, i.e., third stage, second stage are meet the team. And they feel that they've contributed to the decision. Danny 25:59I couldn't agree more. And we haven't had this conversation before today but I 100% agree with you. Jenny 26:05Great, great, it's lovely to talk to someone that's on the same wavelength. Danny 26:08I really advocate that and trying to not to get on my high horse,
one of the dysfunctions of being in the middle of a talent crisis, for the want of a better word, is that when people find what they think a good staff, they want to suck them up straight away, before they get counter-offered. And so, people are rushing into staff. And it's worth remembering that age-old adage, 'Fire fast and hire slowly.' I'm a massive believer in multi-point hiring. Some aptitude test in hiring based on values, but to your point, making sure that multiple stakeholders are involved in that process. But at the moment, that urgency, the tyranny of the urgency is making people make slightly substandard decisions.
Jenny 26:56I can see why it's happening, as you say, because of the climate of the day. But also, you want to hold on to the people you've already got and value them. So, you're kind of making a decision here but possibly losing someone here. Anyway, we digress. I would love Danny, given that you've got such a wealth of experience in account management, to share your experience, first of all of working in account management. Danny 27:19It was 20 years ago when I stopped, I've talked about it already, but it was all I ever wanted to do - well working in an agency rather than being an account manager. But because I didn't do English or a fine art degree, I couldn't go down the creative route but believe you me, for many years, I was a frustrated copywriter and I used to drive my colleagues insane trying to get my lines in ads, but they just always refused that principle. So, I worked up through that very high hierarchical route that you talked about before, trainee, Junior AE etc. all the way through to DFE and then to MD and as well as been hierarchically structured agencies, they were quite brutal places. And that's not something that I'm in any way shape or form celebrating now. I've seen chairs, ashtrays thrown, I was locked in, before they were called ECDs they were just called CDs and I was locked in the office of a famous CD chap who wrote the Hale and Pace chicken Clorets ads. I think it's probably justified but it certainly wouldn't be allowed today. I think there's a danger in looking back at that excess with sentimentality and saying it was a product of its time, but I am delighted none of it would be tolerated today. I do think that there is still in agencies, particularly the larger ones, a sort of echo of that interdepartmental war in the agencies, fostered in those days. And they did, they actively encouraged it. I remember when I was at BJL, they used to talk about it in the staff handbook and my boss or CEO at Gyro, a chap called Chris Becker, he described it as the apartheid of disciplines, which I think is quite strong language, but I kind of know what he means. Back in the 90s, we were described as suits, weren't we? So, we had to wear a suit every day, except for Friday when you got to take your tie off. Or bag carriers. It was our job to carry that black bag with the phone call contacts to sell to the client and woe betide if you fail to sell it or even worse, allow the client to change it! That's when you get locked in somebody's office and ashtrays thrown at you. Jenny 29:42Can I just say I remember that? I've had briefs thrown and strewn across back to me, 'Go back and write that again.' That's rubbish and humiliation. I mean, does it exist today? I don't know. But oh my God! Danny 30:00It was odd ways, but it was explicit then wasn't it? Jenny 30:03It was. It just seemed it was. And they held all the power. Our job was to sell. And selling was part of the account management role. And I don't know at what point over the last 20/30 years, I still don't use the word sales, even though effectively that's what I help people do, is to grow an account to sell. But we don't use the word selling much, do we? Danny 30:36Actually, those great ideas sold themselves, didn't they, Jenny? You just had to go along and hold them up. It's easy to look back at it with sentimental eyes and laugh about it. And I guess that's all you can do. But I remember my boss at the time, chap with the Lancia Dedra and the 200 Marlboro lights. He said, 'Just let that all the bullying roll off your back. You'll go on and achieve far more and earn far more than these guys.' Well, it's not very nice when you say that now, but it kind of helped a little bit at the time, thinking I'm on a career trajectory and I will get through this. But apart from, this sounds like a counselling session, apart from the toxic culture, the bullying, the sexism... Jenny 31:22The lack of diversity, the inappropriateness, smoking in the office, carry on. Danny 31:29But the other big thing that agencies had and still have, I think, is presenteeism and that feeds some of those other things. I was interested in what you were saying before about not having kids and sacrificing your career. I did exactly the same thing. I'm an old dad, I didn't have kids until I was in my 40s. But the work ethic and that presenteeism in agencies was for me, it was kind of my superpower, because I'm from a really northern working-class family. So, it worked for me, and I worked late every night. I worked every single Sunday, and it drives my colleagues mad because I still do now. I time my emails so they get them on Monday now. And when I was at DJL in the late 90s, I remember we worked eight solid weekends on the bounce. Eight. But I think that hard work isn't just measured in hours. I discipline myself to read every week all of the trade press. And they are print issues so reading Campaign and Marketing Week and then reading all my clients vertical press or packaging press, commercial vehicles. And as we've talked about before, I invested in my MBA and other training on top of that. Outside of that, I made sure that I was friends with all my clients. I went to their weddings; I went to their birthdays. I learned to play golf when I don't play golf. And looking back, like you I lived for my career, but I loved it. And I don't regret any of it apart from the ashtray incident. Jenny 33:12A lot of this Danny, came for you naturally. I would say that I come from a working-class family in the south, you come from one in the north. And we've obviously got a very strong work ethic. But you've obviously enjoyed it and I clearly did too. We've got a lot of fulfilment out of our careers. But what would you say to an account manager listening, were the key success factors in account management? You've mentioned a few - getting to know the clients, doing a lot of research and reading around the client's industry, your own industry and being prepared. What else is important for you? Danny 33:53I think we've covered all of it in the round already. But to summarise it's work ethic and that isn't a sort of hustle culture of need to work every minute of the day but work smart rather than hard. Be focused, invest in your personal development. Know your business. Sometimes I think agencies get a bit confused by thinking that they should know more about the client's business than the client and that isn't the case and they never will. Remember what they're hiring you for. Get close to your clients, whether that's socially or professionally - and I don't mean to blur any boundaries there. And if I hadn't said it already, I'll say it again because it's worth saying twice, hard work and be relentless. Jenny 34:38Would you say that with remote working now more of a thing than ever, have you observed from working with agencies, that account managers are finding it less easy, let's say, to develop those client relationships? Danny 34:56It's a good point. It's a really good point. I give all of my consultancies virtually because Mark and I aren't together. I'm in South Manchester, Mark is in Edinburgh and so it's not feasible for us to consult face-to-face. Pete and Spencer do a lot of face-to-face consultancy. So, I'm used to personally building relationships with people online. And when I meet people, like when I met you for the first time, it wasn't weird or different. It was just the same. I've got some guys I met at the pub last week and it wasn't like, 'Wow, I finally met you!' I'm just used to it. But that said, I feel I do feel quite strongly, and I think it's perhaps changing now, I have this week gone back to two set days in the office a week, Mark and I have got a couple of clients who are moving from two to three days. I think we're approaching something that's more a new norm over the next six months. You've got to bear in mind that in January we were still under work from home. But I think it's easy for people at my stage in their career with their lovely office, with a nice drinks’ cabinet, Sky TV, high-speed broadband, to say how great it is working from home. But I think you've got to consider people who might not have that space. They might not have the internet connectivity. They might have young families about. But I think even more important than that, if you think about how you learnt your job and I learnt my job, it was through what I call micro coaching. Little micro moments that happen over discussions or in a tax sale. Think about all those amazing Rob Mayhew sketches. They're just parodies of little micro learning moments. That's how you learn. And my worry, and there's not much we can do about it now because it's done, but a lot of people lost those. And that's why I'm quite pleased that we are in general coming back closer to a more normal working week. Jenny 37:06I think I agree that if there was any kind of downside, from what I'm hearing from the agencies I work with, not all I have to say, but the more junior staff particularly that are joining agencies aren't benefiting from the micro coaching moments when they're listening to their more senior and experienced peers having a conversation with a client, for example. I'm probably putting you on the spot a little bit Danny, but given that we are now going back to some kind of normal situation, albeit hybrid I know, fingers crossed, are you hearing any examples from your agency clients who have done any initiatives in terms of furthering their client relationships or strengthening their client relationships? Can you think of any examples where an agency owner has shared what's worked for them in terms of strengthening and securing those relationships? Danny 38:07What we have been doing, Mark are I are involved in a lot of budget setting, and we're involved in the whole Agencynomics pieces around adding commercial governance to agencies, etc., that's not normally driven by such things. And so,
we're looking at agency budgets and financial performance on a daily basis. And what we've been seeing over the last six months is a huge absence of travel and client entertaining lines in budgets and people's P&Ls and we're putting them back in there. And so that's coming our way rather than the other way. I'm pretty sure that you'll be an advocate of these as well, you'll probably call them something different, but I always work with client action plans. So, I always ask all of my clients, 10 clients, top 5 or 10 or 20, to sit down and create an action plan for that client. And part of that process as we move back towards a more normal world, is how are you going to build relationships with the client?
I haven't got specific examples of they took them to the bowling or whatever, but I think as a principal, it's something that we are encouraging agencies to remember to do. Jenny 39:30Yes, absolutely. What a great idea. And I like what you've shared about having a collective effort in the client action plan because it is all about getting the relevant people from the agency around the table and saying, 'Look, let's talk about this specific client relationship. Where are we at? Where are the strong relationships that we have? Who were the individuals involved?' Because like you said, not everybody wants to go for golf. Not everybody wants to go out for a meal. Some clients would prefer to stay in their homes and have the meeting remotely. So, it's our job isn't it to find that out and to get to know the clients in order to assess that, so that we can make those plans. So, I love that. And hopefully, that's top of mind for everybody. Can you share anything that you've seen in terms of tips for high-performing account management teams, whether it be individuals or teams doing things differently? You've mentioned one, those that are doing action plans and you're putting those line items back in, or some kind of budget behind it, which is lovely. Danny 40:31And the pods of course. So, going back a little bit over some of the previous conversations that we have had, but when I was young, that hierarchical career progression assumed that you started out as a coordinator. So, you were a hard-working organiser, you were a complete finisher. So, I'm used to having lists and spreadsheets, I think you joked about it before we started this call. And I still do, but this is for Mark Probert's benefit, that's my remarkable tool to make all my lists on. But there are far more modern tools that you can use to do that now. And I think as you progress, you're expected to grow your skills - presentation, negotiation, commercial acumen etc. which is why I did things like my MBA. But I think it's increasingly acknowledged that those skill sets and personality types are really quite different. And that's why, as I said before when we work with our clients, we counsel them to put in place pod systems, with dedicated, classically trained PMs alongside ADs. I think hand in glove with that, flatter organisations are seeing a change in management or leadership style and that's characterised by better, more regular, more authentic communication. Something else that Mark and I, without exception, is hold our clients to account to communicate their performance, their financial performance, to their business, whether that's on a weekly or bi-weekly, or monthly basis. And I am pleased as I transitioned my own approach to management many years ago to a coaching style, I've taken some coaching qualifications. I'm a huge advocate. I think that everyone in the organisation should be seen as a leader and a coach. And if you want a really good introduction to this, and if anyone listening is an AIA, that's the Association of Independent Agencies member, they run some sessions called Green Jam. And there's one that was done by Rebecca, who's the COO of Cayenne, who happens to be a Cactus client, and she did a fantastic session on that. And I've got a couple of clients who trained all of that staff in terms of giving them coaching skills. Jenny 42:46I love that, coaching skills, I think it should be mandatory for everybody, I really do. One of the things that I like about what you said just now, is making sure that the agency leaders are communicating with their teams about performance, about updates, because Danny, what I hear is, that the account managers are telling me that they're not being communicated with. They say, 'I'm working too hard, Jenny, I'm working flat out. I'm working late nights.' And I say, 'So you know, the recruitment plan?' 'Oh, yes. They've trying to advertise for two roles.' 'So how far are they through?' 'I've got no idea.' Your team need reassurance that it's not going to be like this forever. Tell them, 'I know that we're a bit short-staffed right now, we're trying to hire but just to keep you updated.' Just communicate on a regular basis, because I think something so simple is often overlooked. Do you agree? Danny 43:39I totally agree. And you could argue that a move back to more regular office-based working would help that. I mean, again, told you I'm an insomniac, I'm also a glossophobe, which means I hate presenting. Anyone listening who used to work with me will back me up. I've done 124, I was counting all staff meetings I did. Last one I did was in Cheadle in February of 2020, there are 93 staff. And so, I think it's really important even if you don't like presenting to stand up on a monthly basis and update your team on performance. I know Spencer did it. He's much better at public speaking than I am. And in fact, he thrives on it. He did it weekly. I think weekly is perhaps a bit too much. But does that answer your question? Jenny 44:27It does. I think you're right. Some people find it more comfortable. But I think it's mandatory. Like you said, regardless of whether you're good or bad or you like it, you need to do it. Danny, can I ask you about the agency landscape in the future? How can you see, for our listeners, things are going to be changing? Danny 44:49That's a really big question. Jenny 44:50I know I'm putting you on the spot. Danny 44:54We have a series of mastermind products. We've got eight of them up and running and soon to be nine. Spencer and Pete run some and Mark and I run some. We talk about the seven big forces that have been at play in agencies over the last decade and how they've all been turbocharged by the pandemic and nearly all of them are positive in their outcomes. Something that I feel really passionate about is that COVID created a talent drought. And it's meant that employers' key focus has had to shift from the business to staff retention, acquisition and motivation, we were just talking about that a moment ago, which is great. But you know what, we're a people business. People have always made up 60/65% maybe even 70% of our costs. People are our multiplier effects. And I think it's a real shame that it took a swing in demand back towards our labour supply to make agencies act on this. And it will swing back the other way. I guarantee it. And I think we'll start to see it swinging back the other way fairly soon. But I would counsel agencies to not alter that focus. Jenny 46:05Why do you think it's going to swing the other way? Danny 46:07Because there's heat coming out of the market. Because we've got double-digit inflation. Because everybody's determined to talk themselves into a downturn. You turn on the news and it's the headline news that replaced Ukraine, that replaced the pandemic. And because people in our sector are talking it up as well. Jenny 46:27It's all in the press, isn't it? And it's all looking a little bit cloudy? What's your view? Any predictions? Danny 46:36Well, I did my undergraduate degree in economics in the late 80s. So, I'm not going to indulge in amateur economics, or clairvoyancy for you! I think it was inevitable that we'd see a slowdown, we've seen sort of fiscal dumping, we're seeing money printing that we've not seen in our lifetimes or our parent's lifetimes and there was always going to be a price to pay for that. I think this is only my own personal view, it's not shared by everybody, I think that we still have the luxury of under-supply in the UK agency space. And I also think, if you think about the IPA Bellwether report that was last published in April, that's forecasting marketeers, predictions of marketing expenditure growth for the remainder of this year, and we're only in June, to be their highest level since 2014. So, you know, the smart marketers have always marketed their way through recessions. Jenny 47:39I agree with that. Danny 47:43I don't like this wild swinging from one thing to another. And I think it's agency leaders or industry leaders as influencers, we have a responsibility to be more measured in our views of how the industry may unfold over the coming months. Jenny 48:01What would your advice be to an agency owner that maybe is listening and thinking I need to make sure that I'm keeping on top of what's happening out there? Danny 48:10I would say what we're saying to all of our clients, which is it's almost a corollary of what I was saying about the talent piece. Why did it take a talent crisis to get agencies to focus on their staff? Yes, the same applies to new business. Don't let a slowdown be what makes you focus on marketing; you should be doing it all the time. It should be always on. So don't create a Kondratieff cycle. See, I'm an amateur economist now! Don't create a Kondratieff cycle - a boom-bust - always double down on your marketing, and do what you tell the clients to do. Now, I've just said, smart marketers. People are quoted in that Bellwether report that will market their way through a downturn. And agencies should do the same. Jenny 49:00Great advice. Thank you. And how can people plug into your knowledge, Danny? You clearly are at the cutting edge of what's happening in agencies. You're working with so many that you're seeing patterns and best practices. How can people tap into your knowledge? Danny 49:19When it comes to the next commercial break, they can buy our book! Jenny 49:24I've heard such good things about this. Danny 49:25When I say our book, I didn't write it. I wrote this 40-word intro along with Mark! Buy the book. And it's not just useful for agency leaders. If people are wanting to progress through agencies, I think it's essential, particularly within client services to understand agency commercials. Also, join our community. Again, that might not connect with everybody on the call because it's only open to agency leaders but listen to our podcasts and broadcasts. Jenny 50:00Yes, there's lots of valuable information that the Cactus team put out. And as you say, I've read the book, I love the book, I recommend it. And so many people that have read it, particularly someone who either aspires to run their own agency, is interested in how an agency runs or is scaling their agency and just want growth, there's so much value in that book. It's so full of detailed tips and strategies and tools and things that have worked and are working. So absolutely, I will definitely put a link in the show notes. And Danny, I just want to say a huge thank you, first of all, for joining on the podcast. You've been brilliant. And if people want to work with you, who do you want to be contacted by? And what's the best way that they can reach you? Danny 50:47So, we're targeted exclusively on the independent space. So independent agencies and we're targeted almost exclusively, although we have got some products and services that are targeted at non-agency owners and founders, but our core offering is targeted at agency owners and founders. Contact us by the website or via my email. Jenny 51:29You can go on to YouTube and look at the Agencyphonics podcast. Any podcast player has Agencyphonics as well. And there are so many podcast episodes with agency owners all talking about their stories, sharing tips and strategies for growth and also sharing challenges. So, another fantastic resource. Danny, thank you so much. Are there any parting words of advice that you would give, particularly to an aspiring account manager that's on that career fast track? Danny 51:59Enjoy it. Because if you don't enjoy something, don't do it. It's a dreadful cliche but find the job that you love, and you'll never have to work again. You've got to enjoy it. And that's why I chose agencies, and that's why I'm still in them because they're supposed to be fun. And remember the chap with the Lancia Dedra and the 200 Marlboro lights. He said, 'Your clients have got to enjoy dealing with you. It's got to be fun; you're going to have fun with them because they're not having fun in the other things that they're doing.' Jenny 52:29Do you know what, that is your mic drop moment right there? Just enjoy it. And if you're not get out. I love that. We're going to finish on that because I don't think it's going to get much better than that. Danny, thank you so much for joining me. Danny 52:41My pleasure. Thank you
