How to improve the way you work with a marketing director, with Sam Bridger

Sam Bridger is an interim Marketing Director and consultant.She has worked in marketing for over 25 years, 14 of which have been spent as interim marketing director. Throughout her career she's managed many different agencies and so is in a very good position to provide the 'client side' perspective on how agencies manage her business.In this episode, she shares lots of tips and insights into what its like being a client and how you can improve the way you work with your client:* How to engage with your clients when they're not responding to you* Why you need to understand the role and associated pressures of your client* One of the best ways to make a cold approach to a prospective client* Why she thinks it's a great idea to ask your client for referrals where the relationship is strong* The worst thing agencies can do during client meetings and pitches* Why being genuine and empathetic is so important to the account management role* Why you need to take an interest in the client's product and learn as much as you can to be credible for clients* How to treat the client when having meetings and do your homework before meeting clients* The importance of taking the time to do your research before client meetings and pitches* Why she believes the traditional pitch process needs to change to a shorter term project approach before assigning all the business* Why helping the client deliver their objective is your key role* Why agencies don't ask for feedback enough after a pitch and her suggestion for how you can approach this* Why clients don't always know what needs to go into a pitch brief so asking the right questions is key  You can connect with Sam Bridger on LinkedIn and also read her top tips for chemistry meetings here. Transcript:Jenny  So, Sam, a very big warm welcome to you, to the podcast. So we were introduced by a mutual friend, Tina Fegent. And I'm very grateful to her, because it's always good for me to get recommendations for who I should get on the podcast. And so I'm going to hand over to you in a moment, Sam to give you to give your background. But I just thought it was really interesting because Sam has worked predominantly on the client side, in very senior level marketing positions. And she's essentially now an interim marketing director. And I was just looking through all of your history, Sam, and you'ved worked with some fantastic brands, you know, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. There's Mercedes Benz, Whitbread, Avios, MS Society, Anglian Water. And that's just the tip of the iceberg of all the brands you've worked with. So I think this is going to be really valuable discussion for us, because I think it's really, you've come across so many agencies in your time. So getting your perspective and sharing your experiences are going to be really valuable. So welcome. And would you mind spending a couple of minutes just talking about you your background? And who you help? And maybe some, give some flavour for your experience working with agencies? Sam  Yeah, absolutely. Hi, Jenny. So my name is Sam Bridger. I'm an interim marketing director and consultant. I think the thing to say with me is that I started agency side. So I started my career at J Walter Thompson, JWT, and Gray. And so I'm really empathetic to the agency point of view. And I've also done a stint at the AAR. So I've also done that intermediary piece, I think you've said, I've kind of been on all three sides of the pitch table, if you like. So I think that really helps me as a client to work with agencies and understand the demands that face them. You know, I've been a client for 25 years been an interrim for 14 years. So I've kind of worked with more agencies than I can remember and probably run more pitches and I've had hot dinners. And so yeah, lots of different experience. And, currently, now I'm looking for the next challenge as either a strategic consultant with an agency or with a client. So yes, it's, as we come out of furlough, it's all starting to look quite exciting again, now. Jenny  It's getting very busy, isn't it at the moment? So I love that that's quite a special background as well, given that you've worked for two, you know, both sides of the fence, as it were. And I mean, from your perspective, because a lot of debate lately, Sam has been around the value of account management, could you give me your perspective on what value you see the role of account manager bringing to maybe both the agency and the client side? Sam  You know, there's lots of examples of this. And it's, I think, the first thing to say is recognising that the role of account manager it's a difficult balancing act, because you're there to manage the clients expectations, but also to sell the agency product. And you know, sometimes they're very clearly caught between two stools.And it is a challenge, particularly if there is a big disagreement over a creative route, that the account manager has to walk that line. But it much like the marketing director is the voice of the client ,sorry, the voice of the customer I should say within their business, the account manager has to be the voice of client in the agency, they have to be representing the needs and the wants and the issues that the client is facing, and therefore really need to understand them. And maybe we'll talk about that a little bit more later on. So, you know, I think what clients really appreciate is to understand any kind of internal dialogue that may have gone on about a creative brief, for example, if it's being presented, we don't necessarily want the account managers to just come to us and go, you know, here it is. Everybody loves it. If that's not the case, you know, be honest with us, because it's such a subjective process creativity, that there's never a right solution. And understanding the dialogue and discussions that have gone on behind the scenes does sometimes help us go you know, what, actually,  that's a good point. Maybe we hadn't thought of it that way, rather than well, they're selling you this, you've gotta buy this , you know, and I think  that very old school way of working, I'm hoping it's kind of going away, but I still see it, you know, it's still it does still rear its head occasionally. And it's just it's a shame because absolutely, you know, everything that I do, and the way that I manage my own teams, the way that I manage my agency is honesty is the most important thing that you can have. And you're going to get the best work if you have that kind of discussion. And that understanding and ultimately, as an account manager, if you don't believe in the work, don't try and get someone else to buy it. Jenny  I love that. I think that's really insightful. So how do you propose that an account manager does that? Well, so you said that it was really useful to hear the internal dialogue behind the scenes of maybe giving those creative concepts and presentations more context for you, rather than saying that this is the right route and being very sort of salesy, and you know, tell me a bit more more about that. Sam  I think just rewind a step, I think, how clients manage agencies is absolutely critical to all of this. And I think I am always staggered, whenever I move into a new organisation, quite how bad so many clients are at it, the amount of times I'll go to an organisation, and the agencies are being kept separate they're at arm's length, they're only being called in when there's a brief to answer. And for me, to get the best out of an agency, they have to be part of a team that, you know, it's a team effort, marketing. it always has been, and you know, it's not down to the client, it's not down to the agency. So they are a big part of our external marketing team. And so they all need to be around that table. So one of the first things I always do is to, is to bring people together. And you know, I'm quite often have them looking at one brief and coming up with the answer together, because I think that's really important, that kind of shared knowledge and that shared expertise. And I have yet to work with an agency that hasn't appreciated that, that hasn't thought, it's really good to see what the other guys are doing. And to get that, those new sparks of insight and those new little nuggets from bits of the business that they maybe don't work on. And it was really important as well, when to keep them in the loop, particularly, the kind of work that I do is often transformational. It's about helping the business  change directions, put new strategies in place, etc. And when the business is going through all of that particular change, you need the agencies on site, you know, you need to keep them up to date with everything that's going on. And the last big business I've worked with, which is Anglian Water, there was a dozen agencies that, you know, they hadn't seen for ages that they just worked on this little project, well it was a big project, but it was kind of over to one side. So when we kind of brought around the table and said, this is the strategic ambition of this business, they were like, really, okay, brilliant, you know, that's really exciting, and really motivating. And here's a load of ideas that I've got. And it just sparks all of that creative energy, which I absolutely love. And, you know, in this business, there's no harm in networking with your peers, let's be honest. So it's always a, you know, it's a win win for the agency as well. So I've also taken it to extreme, particularly back in, in my Smart days, where I literally said one brief one budget, and said to them, you pitch for how much you need to spend on this, because I can't sit here arbitrarily and say, Well, I'm going to give this much production and there's much, they are just kind of pulling numbers out the air. So asking the agency to collaborate not only on the strategic direction that we need to take, but also on how we're actually going to spend that money, and then which media channels and which is the best way to do it. And it's always produced really, really great results. So I think, you know, I've never understood clients who think that, you know, agencies are suppliers, not partners, and that we don't need to kind of keep them in the loop on things. Jenny  Why do you think that persists? Sam  Laziness, possibly, and probably just a general, a genuine ignorance. And I don't mean that in a, you know, an offensive way, I just mean, that lack of understanding about what they can actually bring, I think there's a, you know, that one of the biggest issues client side as well, that I see is, is marketing directors who are appointed without classic marketing training. So it's either coming from sales roles from other general management roles, from ops from, you know, from all sorts of places who don't know about marketing. And if they're not instilling best practice on their teams, the teams are not going to learn, it's not going to, you know, it's not going to cascade its way through to the junior members of staff. And I think that's, that's a part of the problem. And also, quite simply, as well, because it is an expense, you know, you're not getting those people, if you're a good client, you're not expecting those people to come around the table for free. So you've got to think about how you're remunerating the agencies and and think about how you want to pay them for their thinking time, as well as their actual productive creative time. So it is difficult and on a tight budget, you know, there is a way to manage it. But there are ways that you can manage it without, you know, hugely increasing your agency bill. Jenny  What do you think agencies could do differently to kind of open that door up for themselves? Because you sound like the ideal client? I'm sure there's lots of agencies kind of cheering thinking I want to work with Sam. But what could what's they're, what's the agency's role in this? How could they do anything differently, to try to open that door to the strategic table? Sam  I think it's a good question, Jerry, I think what can help is just taking that initiative sometimes. So if you know that you're working with clients that does operate in that area, kind of divide and conquer kind of way, then try and find ways to bring the agencies together yourself. So perhaps, you know, run an afternoon workshop where you invite all the agencies together to talk about an issue either in the sector or with a particular client or with a particular brand or whatever it might be. Do it in the afternoon, have a couple of hours of workshopping, and then a couple of hours of you know, going out for a drink and getting to know each other. And it just set that ball rolling and just demonstrate a way to add the value because that's a good way of the client seeing that, this is probably a good idea, maybe I should do this more often. The model that I always run, which always seems to work really well is that there are weekly status meetings between the day to day team, so the account managers and the brand managers or whatever their equivalent is client side, there are monthly planning meetings with marketing directors possibly or the level below, heads of, and planners and account directors, and then quartlery all agencies and at the quarterly all agency, it's a really good opportunity to get people together to see what's happened in the last quarter to think about what's coming up in the next quarter. Review the results because I'm very much result oriented marketing director, I'm not just for that looked nice, fire and forget, let's go on to the next thing, so look at themselves, and sometimes also to bring in guest speakers if you like, guest presenters. So quite often I bring in people from other parts of the business that they've heard of, or they know the area that they look after, but they've never met them to explain the projects that they're working on and bring those to life. And it's just again, it's just a great way of getting people around the table talking. And I do it internally as well as client. So always put into in place internal comms planning processes, which involve the individual business managers in the comms planning process and make sure, I've worked with lots of businesses, where they've come to the marketing department and said, you know, do me a leaflet, or you know, give me a Facebook ad, or whatever it might be, you know, we're not the colouring in department. So tell me what your objectives are. And we'll tell you how we'll solve it for you with our agency team. So it's really important to kind of get those guys involved. And I think I remember one of my absolute best moments, Anglian Water, when there was a person from the parks and recreation team, talking to a person from essentially the wastewater sewerage team about a problem, these two people had never even met before, never been in a room before. And yet, because they were talking about shared piece of land, all of a sudden, they were like, Oh, my god, yes, you could do this. And we could do this. And then that would happen. And it was like, bing, you know, it's that kind of lightbulb moment that I really love those making those connections. Jenny  I think this is so spot on. And you're absolutely right, because the earlier you bring everybody into the process in the beginning, you get everybody's views, and everyone feels like they're part of it, you get all the buy in, and then you take them on the journey. And when those decisions are made, they very much feel like they've been part of it from the beginning. So I'm absolutely in alignment. And I love that that the fact that you've also said not only for agencies, but also internally, as well as how you, you operate. And I see that there might be some agencies thinking, this sounds quite ideal, but where you have an agency that perhaps has multiple, different offerings. You know, if you're coming together with an agency that also has multiple types of offerings, it's almost becomes a little bit competitive in terms of ooh we know what the client's strategy is, now, we're going to propose something, and we're going to propose something, and it where you don't have specialists that are very siloed, in different areas, any kind of thoughts on that, how you can sort of eliminate the competitiveness. Sam  Sure, and competition is a good thing. So my first thing was like, don't be afraid of that. Because if you're a good agency, you'll win your share, you know, your protect your share. And if you're not, you'll learn from the others that did. So I think, you know, the days of individual specialties, as I say, are long gone. But what I've also found with clients is that if you look at you know, whenever you're running a pitch, and you start looking at the agency, they're out there, all the agencies claim they can do everything they always do, you know, we do everything from leaflets to full blown TV campaigns, you know, and very rarely are agencies, brilliant at all of them. And I'm kind of talking about the mid size to small sized ones, not the big groups that have got a solution for everything. So very rarely are those sorts of agencies good at everything, and they've all got things that they're better at, they've all got their areas of specialism even if they can deliver those other things. And with a client like Anglian Water, for example, which is my most recent one, they were using these sort of small to midsize agencies for specific projects, even though there were projects that other agencies are doing that, you know, agency A could easily have picked up as well. So that also helps us it's kind of bringing these people into the room say, Well, we've now got this project. And you know, we're going to ask you guys to pitch for it. Because even though we've appointed you to be our CRM agency, we know that you're capable of delivering this or we wanted you to be our digital agency, but you're equally capable. So it also helps us to have lots of different skills around the room and lots of different opportunities for new creative solutions. And it stops agencies getting kind of tired, you know, with that, well we always deliver the CRM, so we'll just keep delivering the CRM gives them an opportunity as well to re engage in the business in a different way. Jenny  You're absolutely right. It provides that kind of competitive environment a little bit, doesn't it? Which is beneficial to the client because they're going to get the both of both both worlds, best of both worlds. I think also it does keep agencies on their toes and keeps them more engaged because what's the price you pay for sort of doing those mini internal pitches is the fact that you always get to see the client's strategy and you feel bought in. So it almost compounds and cements that relationship, I think which is really, really beneficial. Sam  From a client's point of view as well, you don't want to be doing another pitch to bring another agency on board. And this is the other thing I see is going back to my days at Mercedes, one of the challenges that we had there was that we needed to save, I think something like 130 million euros over the period of a year across across the major European markets in one year. And a large proportion of that fell to the marketing teams to try and make savings and there was so much wastage, it was crazy. And in Mercedes  UK, which covered Mercedes, Chrysler, Maybach, and Smart, which I headed up, we had no agency roster in place at all. So I thought, well, the first thing we need to do is just see who we're working with. And I identified 130 agencies working with MB UK, which is probably not that surprising, you know, from the from the big pan brand media and creative agencies right through to specialist agencies that could put on commercial truck shows, and others that would do golf days for VIPs. So the first thing to kind of put those guys in order and say well you're Tier one, because you do everything,  your Tier three, and then understand within that which ones we needed to have contracts and retainers with and which ones we were just using on a project basis. And once that was in place, it was just so much easier for everybody around the business to go, I need an agency that can do XYZ, so who have we got ok, brilliant, I'll go talk to them. What had been happening in the past was that every time a project came up, they were going out looking for somebody new, because they didn't know that that part of business was working with somebody who was really good. And that helped the agencies not only to generate more business, but obviously to understand the breadth of our business better and get involved in lots of different things and start making the connections on our behalf. And I think that is one thing as well, which is always a great side benefit of this, that you as a client, and particularly in some businesses can be quite siloed, you can be in your division or your team or whatever, focusing on your objectives and your projects. What we need to do, we really need to do X, Y, and Zed and we want to go to I don't know, let's pick those of the Game Fair in Hertfordshire, you know, this year to have a stand there and they go, Oh, you know what, we're already there. But it's my Maybach. So you probably want to kind of coordinate with those guys. And sometimes they help you know what's going on in your own business and stuff that you wouldn't normally kind of come across. So like I say I very rarely see it as a lose situation. But it is it takes a lot of work set it up. Jenny  I presume as always as well, you probably get resistance to it. Because I think the benefit that you have Sam is going into so many different types of organised organisations, that feels to me. So you know, so what a great starting point, collaboration, communication and getting everyone to speak to each other. But what kinds of resistance have you had to that? Sam  A lot. Yeah, I know, it's the thing that I always joke with that I go into an organisation and they say we've got this strategic challenge. help us solve it. Okay. Okay, great. And then I spend my first couple of months, at least the first 10 weeks, going around asking people what the issues are really getting under the skin of the business. And having that  my golden question, which is how can I help you do this better? And they brilliant, here's all the stuff that really annoys me. Here's the stuff that needs fixing, because they can offload on someone who is impartial and isn't there with a you know, a political agenda just there to sort something out, and I go great, and I put it all together. And kind of present that kind of along later and say Okay, so this is the strategy, this is what we need to do it's all the stuff you've told me. So this is what we now need to start changing. And I always get always, always always this 'ah'. When I said I wanted everything to change. I didn't mean me.  So I have to work around that. And it always had to go through this like Yeah, yes, that norming, storming, performing thing of setting up new teams, you always, always get it about three months in. Yeah, sorry, that means I've got to change as well? Not sure I signed up for that. So you then persuade them, you can work with them, you then show them what we're trying to collectively achieve and how ultimate say how I'm helping to make their job easier. And make it make it much more enjoyable for the teams and make it much more easy to understand how to measure their results and you know, achieve their objectives and all that good stuff. So you will always go through that change. The only way you can do it is to tackle it head on and say I know it hurts, but this is why we're doing it. There are always some way you're going to have to push them a little bit harder and they're always some that will just jump willingly and that's just the nature of the beast. Jenny  So not only have you got to be a good marketeer and strategist you also need to be a fantastic influencer to get anything done. Sam  Especially as an interim, because you've got such a short space of time to do it. So there is no I'll just, if you take on permanent job, and I remember this compensation quite readily when I handed over to the permanent hire when I was brought in to set up a strategy and a team while they were looking for the permanent director, and we had our hand over meeting, and I said, Okay, the things that you just need to be aware of is A, B, and C. And he said, Well, I'll just kind of spend the first three months getting the lay of the land, getting my feet under the table before I kind of dig into those. And I thought, great, you know, you've got the luxury of doing that for me it's a complete waste of time because I just told you what's going on. But hey, but you know, you as an interim, you don't have the luxury of time to build those relationships. So you have to do them on the hoof. And you have to do the work and build  relationships and and try and bring people on that journey with you. Jenny  Do you think your skills in your agency life helped you or help you now? Sam  Oh yeah, absolutely. I'm so glad I started agency side, you know. I know, the skills I have now, you know, prehistoric and, you know, the days of buyer books and spot matching by hand when I was a TV buyer with 13 different channels, and you know, but starting at JW T was just fantastic. And such an honour for me to have started there. And they had the mantra at the time, which if you can buy TV, you can buy anything, which is true, because it was the hardest negotiation, it was like, it was like being a city trader buying TV back in those days, you know, people standing up on the phone shouting in the media department. And I'm sure it's a whole lot more pleasant now. But yeah, and it was bloody hard work. But during that, working through pitches, you know, understanding lots of different clients simultaneously working from Esso to Kellogg's to Unilever to all different pitch clients, Swaddlers, which is a nappy brand, which was my first client that was my own client. Yeah, to go through all of that. Absolutely. And I think I there's something, we were talking earlier on about good account management. And for me that being in touch and  being a really good communicator is really, really important. And the account director I worked with when I was at Anglian Water, one of the agencies there was absolutely brilliant, you know, she was always on it, she was a great communicator, she, you know, you just knew that she was on every everything, but she worked ridiculous hours. And I think that, for me, that's one of the things that needs to really change in agency life, that agencies still have rubbish work life balance, you know, you still see them pulling the 2am pitch, you know, and it's like, as a client, I've never done that, unless you've got a kind of job, which involves some kind of emergency response. So I think there is there is work to do on that side   from the agency side definitely. I have every sympathy for it, that needs to change. Jenny  The pace is unreal, sometimes. I want to focus in on that, what you've just said about communication skills, because I think you're absolutely spot on. The best account managers I've ever met, are the best communicators, they are, they just have this ability to make sure that everyone in the room feels that they're informed that, you know, everyone feels part of it spoken to heard, felt. And that skill of communication, I think is so key. And what I wanted to ask you was you you've written on your blog, a few pieces, which are really useful for account managers and agencies, because you've, you've kind of shown the both sides of the coin, in the context of pitching, for example, or also going to a, an agency's office as a client who's bringing the business and how you like to be treated. And you gave a few examples, which I thought was really spot on, you know, like, Don't leave me in the reception area with you know, and don't have the person that's on the reception, eating a bowl of spaghetti when I arrive , because it just gives me that impression. And I would love you to, and I don't want to put you on the spot. But because we are in a virtual world, I'm really keen to hear from you. How can account managers  improve their communication skills when everything is on the screen? Sam  Yeah, it's difficult, isn't it? I think we were talking to somebody the other day, and they were all kind of getting Zoom fatigue as well. And it almost seems to be the default now. And I was talking, I was setting up a meeting the other day with somebody and her PA was  well, you know, would you like to Zoom? Would you like to FaceTime? Would you like to Skype? And I was like I'd just like to speak on the phone, actually, you know, that wrong? We've forgotten, there is this thing that you can pick up? So, you know, I think it is just about checking in and just trying to you know, we don't have to have everything as a formal meeting. And you know, don't forget that you can text, you can just give a quick buzz, you can just drop a quick email, how's everything going. Is there anything I need to do? Whatever the project is, you know, just checking in because for a client, the account manager is there to kind of take your problems away to just this is what we're trying to do. This is our challenge this is my budget, you know, help just make it happen. And whether it's, whether it's on a Zoom call, whether it's on a shoot it's about dealing with the problems that come along and not making a meal of them and just being calm, being flexible, being professional, just being able to deal with staff and take the pain away. And again, it does come down to remuneration, ultimately, you know, we are aware of that if you are, you know, up to the limit on your hours for that week, that month, then you're not going to proactively begin phoning the client, particularly if you're very busy on other client projects, and like you were saying before, running a million miles an hour, but keeping in touch, just making sure that you're not falling off the radar, I think clients also want to feel like, you know, it is a two way dialogue and they don't want to feel like you're only getting in touch when we're paying you for something, you know, just How's it going? Oh, you know, any, anything we can help with any projects, doesn't always have to be a sales pitch, it can just be, you know, we're here, do you need us. Jenny  What do you think's the most useful way to do that? You know, one way you suggested, you know, is there anything you can help, we can help you with, you know, should we have an update on what's happening, you know, so that we can see how we can help. But if, if that's for a client is a bit, you know, I've got too much to do, I can't, I just quite frankly, don't have the time, what would be a useful way for the account manager to keep that dialogue and keep that contact? Sam  It's really helpful, one of the the things I find really helpful is what the competition up to, you know, there are, we can see, if we take the very basic example. And we can see what ads they put on TV, for example, what we can't see is how well they've done. So anything that you can do behind the scenes to get data to get results to do any kind of analytics on their social media listening, or  you know, did you know, I don't know if you've heard about this, but Brand X has got a real big issue because of.... and you might want to kind of take advantage of it, or Brand X are actually doing really, really well. And you think we should kind of try and up our ante somehow. So just you know, just that kind of broader as well as being another pair of specialist ears out there for us really, and just really helping us because my team is busy running their own projects and managing 1000 things, I'm busy managing them and managing families and managing upwards outputs and keeping the board happy. So to have someone out there to kind of really help us. And I think this is as a as a modern client, if you like one of my biggest moans compared to how things used to be back in the old days. It' so bloody difficult to get decent, consolidated campaign results now, because I get presented with a bunch of statistics from you know, various social media channels, which don't add up to a hill of beans normally in you know, in the real world. And I don't ever have that sense, I very rarely have that sense of was this worth doing? You know, was this worth doing? Or should I just taken that half million quid and put it on bus side, or a TV ad or whatever it might be. So help me really understand that, help  my team understand that because ultimately, again, I've got to stand up in front of the board and justify it. And if I can't understand it, and I can't justify it, I'm not going to be able to give it to them, and therefore they're going to take the budget away next year. So really help us to make the case for why we're doing what we're doing. Jenny  It's so useful. It's such a good tip, you know, bring the client something that they didn't know, competitor information being one being really clear about your campaign results. And that's the real data that you need. An that, you know, how much do you think agencies actually understand the role of the client? Because we talked about the other way around, but you've just said, I'm the one putting my reputation on the line by standing up in front of the C suite, the board and explaining what we're doing and why. And actually, how much understandingdo you think agencies have of the pressures that you're under? Sam  It depends, I think, it's it's very easy when your agency side to think that  the advertising, let's call it that, for simplicity sake, is the only thing that they're dealing with. And you know, and it really isn't it for me, it's the nicest bit of job that I love the most, you know, I love working with agencies, I love the creative process. But I've also got salaries  to review jobs, you know, job evaluations, to put forward,people to recruit boards,  to deal with other strategic things to write, you know, I've got a million other things going on in the business that I have to deal with and stuff gets chucked at you all the time. So it's just, you know, it does help to have some sort of understanding of the context of a marketing directors day and what they are also having to deal with. And that comes back to the earlier point of help them do their job, help them take some of that stuff, if they can. Jenny  Do you think it's useful because this is brilliant tips, by the way, Sam. So thank you. What do you think there's anything else that the agency can do maybe at the beginning of the relationship or the beginning of the project, to create that dialogue to say, look, you know, just it's okay if you spend a couple of minutes just telling us telling us about your role your day, so that we can see the best way of communicating with you on an ongoing basis, or if we have a situation where we need to meet you urgently. You know, what do you prefer? How do we contact you? Do you think there's enough done at the beginning to set the relationship up for success? Sam  Probably not. And you could you could even trace that back to the pitch, actually. So I've got you know some of my pitch horror stories. Which I have many and some quite funny? I think, for me, one of the one of the worst things is when agencies don't let the client talk, and you would, you would say, what does that even a thing? And oh, my god, yes, it's a thing. So I've been to two examples spring to mind where one great agents we walked in, and we loved what they've done with a room, they clearly have got our brand. team seemed great, they were, you know, kind of talking, seem to understand what we were there to do. They spent 50 minutes of an hour presentation talking about another brand, and not even a brand in my sector, to the point where I'm actually sitting next to Paul Phillips from the AAR and I just wrote on the page next to him - make them stop. It was just like, guys, are we ever gonna get to the point here, and they were so desperate to show off this really good, you know, award winning work that they've done for this retail client, but they completely forgotten to talk about us. And suddenly, I'm on another one. I think this is when I was at Mercedes, pitching for CRM agency. And we were sitting around the table and having a good chat. And someone said to me, so Sam, you know about the cars - asked me a question. And I literally opened my mouth to answer. And the MD of the agency jumped up and answered it for me. Jenny  Yikes. Yeah, you know, the disappointing thing about that is, I always think that the best account people have a really high level of emotional intelligence, social awareness, and they can kind of read a room really well, so that they're able to kind of say, Oh, my God, you know, I would have thought that someone from the agency team would have picked up on the fact that they'd been talking at you for 50 minutes, and that you were showing some level of discomfort, you'd even leaned over to the guy next to you to write something down. I would have liked to have thought that someone would have picked that up. Sam  It's really, as I said, in my blog, and if I look bored, I am. So yeah, absolutely. I think emotional intelligence, it's a really, really good point, Jenny and I also think it is about being genuine and being honest, because I've also worked with account managers who I'd say are quite fake, who kind of almost pretend to be your best friend. And you know, and then when you don't work them anymore, it's like you're dead to me now. I don;t want you to be my best friend, you know, I want a professional friendly relationship if we stay in touch when we stop working together great. And I have done with loads of people. But I don't want that kind of vague, invite me to a party and then leave me standing in the corner because the clients here you know, kind of nonsense, you know, it's like I am not a client. I am Sam, I'm a normal person and I'm quite nice outside of work. So you know, don't need to..well I'm quite nice in work as well. So, um, you know, I think there is that that thing about being genuine. And I'm just always reminded of, you know, going to the extreme lengths of making a client in this case, not the client making the talent happy. And I don't know if you've ever heard that great story about Sarah Gold or Sarah Golding as she now is who's the chief executive of they're called The Partners now aren't they? Yeah, and chair of the IPA and she was our account director when I was at Orange and she was at the Lowe. And yeah, for her famous story was that she was trying to keep Naomi Campbell happy on an Olympus shoot. So she took up smoking just so that she could hang out with her and like you know, for us mere mortals who aren't you know, as great as Sarah , it is about that genuine you know, be a be on side and be a support, be a great help and be friendly and let's have a let's have fun while we're doing this job. But don't be fake about it. Don't be shallow and obviously the more you find out about me and the pressures on my team and my job, the more you can do to help/ Jenny  Do you think and I don't know what view you've got on this. Do you think the best account managers just have that natural kind of interest and charm about them? Or do you think that's something that with coaching and mentoring and help you can actually help someone with? Sam  I think you need a bit of it to start with ,yeah, I think it can be it can be trained, it can be learned like most skills, but if you're not a genuinely empathetic people person, it will be hard for you to do it genuinely as we just talked about and I think that the thing is, it is a real people job because you do have you know as we were saying before, you do have lots of conflicting people and demands to deal with you know, you are kind of the centre of this storm in a lot of ways, so if you're not a people person and you don't know, you're not great at stakeholder management and engagement, then you are going to struggle Jenny  You're in the wrong job basically. Sam  It's about bringing your whole self to work as well, not your fake self. So if you've if you've got an opinion on something, say so you know, by carrier, you know, you're not there to let the creatives and the planners do all the great thinking you have an opinion too. So bring it to the table, you know, I have seen account managers who've just meekly kind of sat there. And I know damn, well, they've got an opinion afterwards, they've told me and I so well say so, bring it to the table, you know, just just, it's difficult, particularly dealing with creatives. Because, you know, quite often you're dealing with creative egos. And that's sometimes hard to get a word in edgewise. But, you know, you have to, you have to be able to trust your convictions, I think. Jenny  I agree. And I think that's a great point. Because a lot of I think a lot of account managers, they don't want to be seen as an order taker, passively taking notes, and just being the person that goes from one side to the next, they want to be seen as a trusted adviser, they want to be bringing the insights, they want to be bringing the competitor information to you, and have a place at the table. It's a really, it's a tool, it's a tactic, but we use the concept of a one page pre meeting plan. Because if you've got a big client meeting going up, coming up, and you're in that meeting with bigger personalities, maybe a creative, maybe a strategist, etc. You have the ability to orchestrate that meeting by getting everyone together before and say, right, this is how it's gonna go. I'm gonna lead I'll bring you in at that point, then I will ask for questions. Because I I personally think that the client then has the perception of that person as valuable. Because if you're sitting in a meeting passively taking notes, you don't say anything, A the clients probably going to think well, what am I paying you for? But also, what value are you bringing, like you say. Sam  Exactly, and a lot of that stems from understanding the client's product properly as well. Again, in my blog, I talk about examples again, mainly they're pitches, but it just shows how critical it's where I've had as a car client been presented with account managers that can't drive, as a client for NHS blood and transplant someone who's never given blood. And working with at Whitbread these sort of 20 something Shoreditch types who'd never even heard of Beefeater Inns let alone set foot in one because it's not a London brand is not trendy and stuff you know, mid market family brands been around for 50 years, you know. So I think it's, it's make sure you learn as much as you can about the product you live and breathe it, you know, drive it, go on it, do whatever, whatever, whatever, eat it, whatever it is, you know, experience it as much as you possibly can, and understand it, because I the one thing that that I have said in a boardroom scenario is that if I've got a seat at this table, I've got a voice at this table. Otherwise, there's no point me being here. And, you know, and I think they need to remember that they're not the note taker, you know, they're not the person to carry the bags and you know, carry the the art folder, they are the person who is there to kind of help cohesively bring, bring everything together. It's an it's an important skill. Jenny  Absolutely. And that's great advice. Do you have any other because you said you have quite a few horror stories, I'm really keen to hear them. Because you know, someone listening might think, Oh, my God, I think we're going into one of Sam's potential horror stories. And you've just actually given a lot of food for thought already. Do you have any other ones that.. Sam  I could sum it up really with the same philosophy that Whitbread had so Whitbread obviously have Premier Inn, Costa Coffee and four more restaurant brands. And their philosophy was 'our house' when I was working there, and it was really simple, it didn't matter whether you were the chief exec, or a waitress  in a Beefeater or a chambermaid in a Premier Inn, you treated the place as if it was your house. So if someone was coming to your house, you wouldn't give them a dirty glass to drink out of, or you wouldn't you give them dirty sheets to sleep in, you know, make sure that the room was tidy that when they finished drinking, you offered them another drink, you know, so it's just it's that bringing it down to a really simple level. And so when I go to an agency, whether it's a pitch or just a meeting, it's just like, you know, it's that welcome. If that making sure the reception is tidy, you know that that someone having a bowl of spaghetti really happened in the middle of reception and you know, copies of Campaign that were four weeks out of date and stuff like that, or being left sitting there one I remember where I was delayed because of a train and I'd phoned to say I'm really sorry, train delayed, I can't do anything about it. I'm going to be about 10 minutes late, arrived at the agency was left sitting in reception for another 10 minutes. And I'm sitting there thinking, this is the time I'm meant to be in a meeting with you. What are you doing? You know? Why are you leaving me here, or I've turned up for a meeting before my colleague, and I've just been left sitting in an empty meeting room until the colleague arrives. And it's like, I don't want to be treated like royalty, but I also would like a bit of professional courtesy and, you know, maybe you could chat to me and find out a bit about me before the official meeting starts. Back in, this is going back a while but I when I left advertising my first client job was at the RSPB, which is the bird charity. And the big joke is that I know nothing about birds, I can barely recognise a chicken, but I was there to do a commercial job for them. And we had started a search for an agency to celebrate our millionth member at the time. And I ended up running that as an ex agency person. And we went to meet some media agencies and I had obviously come from seven years as a media planner buyer. I was working with two deputy marketing directors or two assistant marketing directors, joint marketing directors, I should say, one who was ex IDB and one who was ex I think Unilever again an FMCG brand, I can't remember, in the mists of time, and the media, one of the major agencies at the pitch treated as if we were like three old ladies who worked in the gift shop. I was at the time, I was like, 28, so I wasn't even an old lady, you know, just the  no bother to check out what our backgrounds were, what we knew. And he started to talk, one of the guys started talking the most random media bullshit at me, which I let him kind of tie himself up in a knot for about 10 minutes and then said, Well, actually, I think it's du du du du du du and the shock on his face. And I said, I'm sorry, I should have told you I was a media planner buyer for eight years. And it was like, you know, serves you bloody right mate, do your homework. So I think that's, you know, that the value of what you can understand and to have conversations where you're, you know, there is such thing as a stupid question nowadays, because the internet can tell you so much that don't ask me who the parent company is of my brand. Or don't ask me what other cars we make, or you know, whatever it might be, do your basic homework. Don't turn around to me say, this is so interesting. I didn't know anything about this until yesterday, you know, I haven't come here to talk to a bunch of interns. I've come to talk to you about your expertise and how you can help me improve what I am trying to do with my brand. So yeah, and there's all that there's all the little things that catering is always one which gets me which makes me laugh, you know, being presented wio platesth ginormous, crumbly croissants and no plates.  On a futon. And yeah, milky tea, I'm lactose intolerant, by the way, in a chipped mug, chipped kind of freebie mug. So yeah, they're just, you know, all of those sorts of things. It's just treated me as if I'm a guest in your home. So treat, treat me in the way that you would you would treat guests in your home. And it's that conversation, you know, we're here to talk about your business and how you can help us. Jenny  Do you think it's got worse or better? That aspect of it? Sam  Oh, good question. I don't think it's changed enough. Actually, I don't think it's necessarily got worse, but I don't think it's got better. I think it's very easy and easy for agencies to go into pitch mode. And they, you know, deploy the same team, you always deploy approach it in the same way. And I've read lots of lots of books and lots of essays on how to break that cycle, and how to think about pitching differently, etc. and that it's worth digging those sorts of things out. But yeah, it. Unfortunately, the whole pitch process is still so mired in the same. Here's a brief, here's the long list. Here's the short list now that and what it doesn't let you do sufficiently is road test a relationship. And ultimately, that's what it's all about. And I think next time I'm looking for an agency, I'm really going to try hard to do it differently. I'm going to try and do some project based road testing, rather than the big all singing, all dancing, kind of, okay, you've got all the business based on two meetings, you know, it's like marrying somebody when you've been on two dates, isn't it? Jenny  Essentially, it is. Where do you see that? You know, what do you what would you be looking for during those kind of test projects? What kinds of behaviours and skills? Sam  I think, you know, as we've talked about it is that communication, it's about staying one step ahead. It's about being calm and professional, but taking as much crap away from my day as you can, you know, when it comes to that particular piece of work, and, and just really helping bring the whole piece together, you know,  none of us are working in isolation, working with other agencies, you know, and and helping me deliver my objective. That's ultimately what I'm employing you to do. So however, you can help do that is always going to be appreciated, I think. I think the other thing is, in whatever type of agency contract or relationship we have, that would be like regular reviews, those relationship audits are so important. And I think for them to work in the best possible way they need to be 360. So the agency can review the client as well as the client review the agency. And it's always done anonymously, you know, so, of course, you can normally work out who said what but that's beside the point. But I think it is really important because a good client should want their agency to improve and they should want their teams to improve. And if so, you can do that like twice a year or after a big campaign or whatever it might be and having a kind of structured, for each kind of production and account management , creative, you know, you have a few structured questions. And just it really just helps to kind of bring any issues out really understand where things went right where things went wrong, what can we do more, or what should we do less of, how should we change, and also has been a big issue or with have a wash up meeting, you know, I had one recently when I was at Anglian Water where there was an issue. And it is not about apportioning blame, it shouldn't ever be that no one should ever kind of worry about going, the biggest problem was that Dave screwed up. And it was like, Alright, Dave, let's kind of understand how that happened. You know, what, what was it that led to that decision? And you know, unpick it that it doesn't happen again, it's not about what, fire Dave, I don't want to see his ugly face ever again. You know, it isn't about that, if you're a good client, you should be much more empathetic to particularly when you are this, you are loading an awful lot of pressures on the agency when this particular campaign I'm talking about was geo dependent, location dependent, weather dependent it you know, there were so many variables in it, and across so many channels, inevitably, something was gonna fall over. So we were lucky, it was only one thing. But when it did, it had a bit of an impact. So you know, okay, one thing fell over what happened? How do we make sure it doesn't happen again, you know, I've never been the kind of manager that screams and shouts at my teams, I'm not going to do that to my agency either, I just don't see the point. Jenny  Do you think agencies ask for feedback enough? Sam  No, they don't. They're bit scared. They're a bit like, Oh, we might find out something we don't like I'm particularly in the pitch scenario. I think the other thing is even putting, like the likes of the AAR and the intermediaries to one side, since I've been running pitches, for however many 1000s of years, only one agency has ever phoned me directly to ask me why they didn't get a business. One. You know, which is mad really , I was quite happy to tell them. Jenny  Why do you think yeah, they you said that they're scared. Any other reason that you think that might be happening? Sam  I don't know. You know, when I worked with agencies as a pitch consultant, and you know, one of the things that is quite often said to me is, we're quite often the oh you came in really close second, and why is that? And my first question is, then what what what, what have you asked, the clients that have told you that, you know, what, have you started kind of compiling that client A said,  it was because of this, client B, said that, you know, if there are either a theme emerging here, or that something that we can start to kind of put together. And quite often they don't, I don't know whether they rely too much on the intermediaries or they think it's an imposition to phone the client, you know, but it's again, it's like, don't be scared about doing that, you know, this, we're just normal people, like you guys, just give us a buzz. And if we can't answer you, or don't want to answer you, we will tell you, but if we're happy to, then you've got nothing to lose. So it is just about trying to get as much kind of experience together. What you know, it's like, it's like the relationship audit, you know, after the pitch, if you didn't get it wash up. Why didn't you get it, be honest? Don't be afraid to say well, actually, it was because the MD just didn't stop talking. And maybe he shouldn't be in the pitch. Or maybe he should come in at the end, you know, manage the individuals and egos is the hardest thing. But if that's what's stopping you winning business, it's something you have to face up to. Jenny  It's so true. I'm actually thinking about my early days in the agency world where we didn't get a pitch, and I know that the the MD didn't stop talking fully enough. And you can just sense that you think this isn't this seems really flat, you know, and of course, he didn't get it. But I think that's really good advice about giving, you know, asking for feedback productively.  What do you think about clients that before the pitch, they don't give the agency enough access to them? You know, a lot of agencies complain to me that they're going into pitch for a piece of business, but the clients you know, they get the brief, a maybe they're allowed a window of half an hour  with all the other agencies to asks a few questions. But what do you think about  client's being more open to agencies contacting them beforehand to get some more context? Sam  They absolutely have to. You know, bonkers. I can't imagine trying to, you know, if we go back to the getting married scenario, you're not going to marry somebody when you've only spoken for half an hour. So if you really want to have a proper collaborative relationship, you need to get to know each other. And what I always make sure that I do is build in at least two hour long follow ups with the shortlisted team. So they'll probably be one at brief stage it might be just a half hour call to do a QA and so you you schedule that and it's  individual it's never with all the agencies at once because that's not fair. And then for the ones that are shortlisted and then answering a brief or putting together, you know, some example creative, whatever we've asked them to do. Then there'll be another either face to face meeting or a call or, you know, currently a Zoom probably And how are you getting on? You know, is there anything you need to ask us now? Is there anything that's not working for you. And the other thing that I found in that process, almost inevitably, the agencies that you think at the beginning, are doing really badly, like in that interim stage, when you, when you have that kind of get together and think they haven't got it, they haven't cracked it. And another agency is doing really, really well, almost always, they will flip around by the time they come to present. And the agency that were doing badly wins the business and the agency that was doing brilliantly falls at the final hurdle. Don't know why it happens, but it almost always happens. So it's really important to kind of see and it helps you as well get to know them and see their thinking and how they're working through things and steer them back on course, because it's in nobody's interest if you get to pitch stage, and they've gone completely barking up the wrong tree. So you do need to make sure  and I think it goes back to my   thought of trying to run it differently next time. Because in the real world scenario, you wouldn't brief an agency and then go bye see you in six months, you know, three months or whatever, you would work with them on the campaign until you had something you're happy with. So why should the pitch scenario be running these very old fashioned kind of , can't possibly talk to each other during this process? Now, I realise it's time consuming. And that is the biggest thing about it. But it's a big investment. So you should be prepared to make the time and try and find and try and prioritise that time in your diary. Because if not, you're not going to get the best result. If you don't potentially. Jenny  I absolutely agree. I think it also shows commitment from the client to the agency, because many agencies just think, well, this is a huge beauty parade. There's probably at least five others, if not 10, 20. You know, there have been pitches where, you know, it's like throwing, you know, spaghetti at the wall and hoping something sticks, they seem to throw it out there to agencies, loads of different agencies. And I suppose from an agency's perspective, yes, many are good at qualifying those opportunities first. But quite frankly, if perhaps the financials aren't in the place where they need to be, they might take that opportunity, but then they go on to waste their time. And time is money, as you know, they know, unfortunately, that's the business model. Sam  Yeah, exactly. You don't want to waste time. So I think the other thing that's really important if the  clients don't have a beauty parade, you know, I've always been very, very certain that whoever is on that shortlist, we should be able to work with any of them. So there should be no like, Well, they've done a great job. But we, you know, we didn't like the MD becuase he didn't shut up, you know that there shouldn't be any of that, to have got to that final three, whatever, any of them should be able to win it. So I think it's not fair to have a beauty parade. Absolutely not. Jenny  No. And sometimes they think that they're making up the numbers, you know, and you find that out afterwards. But this, Sam, I'm just conscious of your time, this has been so rich with insight, and I'm sure loads of people coming away with some thoughts and ideas for how to do different things. And I would like to just ask you a couple more questions, if that's okay. Do you get approached from a new business perspective by agencies? Sam  Yeah, I, certainly less than I used to. When I started my career  as an interim, I did more consultancy and agency pitch work. And it's kind of morphed into more interim marketing director work. But yes, I still do it. And I'm yeah, I get the occasional approach. But I think what would be really nice if it wasn't always the, we've got this pitch next week, and we haven't done anything about it. You know, so there's 11th hour things. So yeah, but certainly what, what I tend to do is, is help, I kind of call myself a surrogate client, because I help them think about the brief from the client's point of view. And I think one of the, the biggest tips I would give you is that the client doesn't always know what they want when they write that brief. So if you're slavishly answering it word for word, you're not necessarily bringing your best game to the table. And I think particularly as you know, as agencies, we were saying earlier on agencies are multi disciplinary now, and everyone can do everything, supposedly. So it's quite hard sometimes for the client to know what type of agency they need, or even what type of campaign activity they need to run, you know, it's just, I've just got this thing you know, that the old days of I need a media agency or I need an ad agency, are so long gone, that you you much like as I was saying, earlier on, about as an internal client, you need to come to the team going, Well, here's my problem, how can I solve it? That's why I personally really like the intermediaries because they can help you kind of sort the wheat from the chaff at that early stage. But all that said, It is about looking at the brief and thinking you know what I'm what I'm actually seeing here is the client wants this. They've expressed it in this way, but actually their challenge if I know enough about their business, and I've dug into it is this. So I do I have worked with agencies and there was one PR agency that was helping with it with a car pitch that would just went hell for leather on some fantastic stunt idea. It was like, that's a tactic, not strategy. They're looking for a strategy. No, no, no, this is what they want, this is what they want. And guess what happened, they didn't win the business because they hadn't expressed enough, you know, strategic knowledge of what the challenge was, they just focused everything on a creative idea. So I can definitely help them on fixing that way. Jenny  That's brilliant. And if they're an agency that's trying to reach out to a prospective client, any tips on how to do that in a way that is going to make them stand out? Sam  Oh, that's a really hard question. I think, you know, it goes back to what we're saying, just help solve their problems for them don't kind of come to them, have you got any work? And I'm using kind of really stupid terms. Of course, no one will do this. But you know, I understand that this is a challenge in your sector. This is what we think we might be able to to help or this is what we've done for another brand in your sector and look at the results or have you thought you know, so it's come with a with a challenge and a solution, you know, and just try and it's about dialogue about making yourself useful. I think that's, that's the thing. It's hard to do because everyone's busy and, you know, marketing director, you know, as a marketing director, you're so aware of being cold, called, as well, you know, the Hi, just thought I'd get in touch to you know, so you do have a screening filter on networking, you know, all of those sorts of things. Jenny  And just final question, if you're, if you've got an agency that's working really well with you, and you love them, it's been going on for a while, and they've been performing really well and bringing you new ideas, new insights, etc. Have you ever been asked by an agency of that of that kind? for referrals? Like, can you refer me to other parts of the business? Or can you refer me to other.. Sam  It's really interesting to me, I don't think I ever have actually, I have done it. You know, I have said to other parts of the business all you know, you should work with this agency, and the example about the Mercedes roster got agencies working with other bits of business. I don't think anyone has ever explicitly said, Could you recommend me to someone, you know, if either inside or outside the business? So that's, that's a really good tip. I think do that. Jenny  Okay, so good. Because if someone had asked you would you have helped? Sam  Yeah, I thought they were a good agency. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's all about helping each other out. So, yeah, I would have no qualms in recommending and I have, subsequently as a client, obviously, I've gone on to, from one business to another and said I've worked with that agency they're fab , I wonder if they could help us. So you know, I,  you keep hold of the good ones. Jenny  Customer lifetime value, love it. Listen, where can people get hold of you? And who would you ideally like to approach you? Who do you work with best? And where can they find you? Sam  You can find me on LinkedIn, Sam Bridger, or sambridger.com is my website. So you can get hold of me through that. And I think the clients that I really like to work with, and this has really been sort of amplified over the last year or so with everything that's been going on are those that have a good sense of social responsibility. I've worked with a lot of charities, I'm not just a charity client. Anglian Water's a really good example of a business that totally oriented itself around sustainability and environmental protection. And looking after vulnerable customers, though, you know  that meant a lot to me. So there wasn't sort of, as I like working with but also loved the hospitality sector, you know, worked in the hospitality sector quite successfully. I've worked with lots of different organisations. For me, it's just it's always about the challenges is what I always say it doesn't necessarily matter what the sector is it's like, you've got to meaty challenge, if the business is a bit stuck, or you know, your agency is a bit stuck. And you need to think about how you can pivot and do something different than yeah, I'm your woman. Jenny  Amazing. Honestly, Sam, you've provided so much value today. Thank you so much. I'm very grateful for Tina for introducing us. So thank you so much for coming, Sam  Pleasure. Thank you, Jenny.