What can creative agency account managers learn from an account manager in the software industry, with James Aldrich

James Aldrich is a major account manager with over twenty years experience in both business development and account management in the software industry.James's sector speciality is telecommunications and I invited him to share his experience to see similarities and differences between the account management role in the creative industry and software industry.Despite starting his career wanting to be a film director or a guitarist in a band, he found himself in account management which has not only opened up many career opportunities but has also allowed him to fulfil his ambitions outside of work.In this brilliant chat, James shares his thoughts on:* How your own network is one of the most important aspects of your role and how it can bring value to your clients, your company and to your own career* Why it's important to choose a company to work for that aligns with your personal values* How and when to ask for referrals* Why business development and account management are similar roles* How sharing insight into how other industries work can bring value to your clients* How 'buddy systems' enable junior account team members to get up to speed quickly* Why taking a 'customer first' approach to everything you do leads to success* The importance of ensuring every client communication and touchpoint reflects your company values* Why you should learn from how other industries operate* Why you should always be curious and look ahead to what's changing in your industry and your client's industriesI really enjoyed this chat and I hope you come away with some reminders and inspiration for other things you could be doing in your career or role that will be valuable to you, your client and your agency. Transcript:Jenny  So today's episode, I've got something a little bit different. I'm really thrilled to say that James Aldrich has joined me. And James actually works in account management, but in a completely different industry. And I thought how exciting it would be to have someone from a completely different industry to give us a perspective on account management, to see what we can learn from other industries. So James Aldrich, he works in the software industry, and he looks after accounts, in the telco space. So James, would you mind spending a few minutes just talking about your role? And how you actually got into account management? James  Yeah, thanks, Jenny. So I'm in a major account director, I've been selling software and being an account manager for 21 years now. And I wanted to be in sales. And of course, you know, from business development into account management when, when you bring new clients on board. And so I've had a mix between hunting and farming the last 21 years. Jenny  And tell me, you know, the value of account management because I asked the same question to everyone. But I would love to hear it from your perspective, having been both in the business development side and the account management side, what do you think the value of the role of account management brings to both your company and also to your clients? James  Well, I think that I don't really, honestly see a huge amount of difference between business development and account management, I think that part of what you're doing is looking after a client is to extend your network anyway, which is very similar in the way that you do with your account. And how you establish the relationship between your company and yourself. And the the client as well is, is a kind of a reflection of within the pre sales process, and how it should be within the post sales process as well. So the value I bring to my clients A is a knowledge of expertise within the platform that we support and sell for service, also within the industry, but also as a conduit into other organisations as well. A lot of my clients want to learn what other companies are doing sometimes within their own industry and outside of it as well and, and give an idea on best practice and, and opportunities that they could leverage through this kind of combined network as well. So kind of the value that I bring to my companies for that is a single point of contact, I have access to some of the best people in my industry, that work for my company, that support me, I'm very lucky in that base as well. And they are always a professional reflection upon the company. But more importantly on me as an individual, my integrity to that organisation, because ultimately, in business development people buy from people. And through account management, that trust is sort of elongated through the lifecycle of a client. Jenny  You said something really interesting to me, before we had before we had this interview, which was your values, and you said, it's really important for me to align my personal values with the values of the company I'm working for? Can you finish off that story? Because I thought it was so, such a powerful thing to say. And you started off by saying that, but it was the most important thing for you. Why is that good?  Yeah, it is, I think, through your career, the one thing that follows you is a reflection of your behaviour through each of your clients, and the value we bring is your network. So everybody that works with me and for me on the support of my clients, I say that these are your clients, what is your contacts, you know, and how you define yourself is a reflection on the values of you in an individual, if there's a misalignment between my company values and how we behave. And me personally, that becomes an integrity issue. And it won't just sit with that company, it sits with the individual as well. So yeah, values are 70% of the reason why I work for a particular organisation are the values match between what I believe is important. And of course, you align them to the client as well. And that's why business development and account management sre not that different, because because it's a continuation of it. So the company feels that they can work with individuals. But primarily, they believe the platform that we support and sell is the best in the market and meets the requirements. And they're also going to be able to follow that through because in any project that I do, occasionally there are issues that come up. And you need, the client needs to feel as though we're approachable and we're contactable and they need to feel that we have their sustainability and success at heart. And that is really at the heart of the core values we say customer first in everything we do. We also talk about white gloves experience, you know, making sure that every point of contact within my organisation and how we engage and interact has to be a certain level of dedication, quality and it has to reflect the values of that company. Primarily authenticity for me is the most important thing you know, we talk about being your true self. You can't fake it. It's you can't fake passion. You can't fake enthusiasm. You're either enthusiastic for what you're supporting and what you're selling or you're enthusiastic to work with the client you're working with, and you're enthusiastic in the role you've got. And again, making sure that the core of that is, in your values is the most important thing for me personally. And the reason why I choose in my career who I work for, Jenny  There's a couple of things that I want to pull out there, which were really interesting for me, the first thing you said, which I think is gonna resonate with a lot of people listening is I also bring the value of my network. Just the first part of the question really is, how proactive were you and have you been in networking? You know, and how do you network?  Okay, yeah, honestly, everything. So my, before I joined my current company, I work for a company called Anaplan. And before that was Oracle, and for that SAP, so I work for big organisations that will already have an established brand within a particular organisation. And when you join a smaller company, and you're starting to reach out, you realise, in part that the value you had previously as being part of a big company, like Oracle doesn't exist anymore, so you really need to re establish your customer brand. And that is through the network. So there's a lot of pressure on people at the moment, especially in during the day, how do you get access? How do you reach out to people, because you can't call up an office cold calling is completely unacceptable. In my view, if you're calling someone's personal mobile that on LinkedIn, you can get access to people's mobiles, or companies that will gather people's personal mobile, but for me, it doesn't reflect the ethics of how I manage it. So I don't I do it through referrals. I do it through referrals with a partner that we work with the GSIs, or do it through other companies that I've worked with, or, or people that I know already. So these days, everybody knows everything, and everybody can find everything out. So and I think 80% of the sale is done before you even engage with the client. So how you represent your network, and how you support your network is probably the most important thing in my role, which, if I know that I'm introducing people that will add value to the clients that I'm working with. And also will support the credibility that I'm working hard to establish within that as well, then it becomes kind of a quid pro quo, we'll support each other through that journey. And the partners that I work with like Deloitte, Accenture, EY etc, they will help introduce me into different organisations because they know that I reflect a particular level of expertise within my field, which is a value to the clients that they're engaging with as well. And then again, it's completely aligned to what is the objectives of our companies collectively. And ultimately, I'm going to keep saying and sustainability of the clients because at the moment, it's not about how, what are you going to plan for what comes next is about the speed at which you react to it. So if I can help become a conduit into my organisations to support that. And people are losing their roles as well, they're losing their jobs as well. So part of what I'm doing as well as is engaging them with other companies that are looking for people because one one industry come down, another goes up. And you know, technology is being pretty, weathering exceptionally well. So if we can help support those individuals through that journey, it becomes a much longer career plan for myself and for them as well. Jenny  With referrals, do you tend to organically sort of receive referrals? Or do you actually actively ask for referrals, where it benefits you? James  Yeah, every every, there's one of the things I always find at the end of every meeting is is somebody else, this will be a value to somebody else, that it'd be useful to somebody else that I could speak to as well. Nine times out of 10 or so why don't I just keep it to me that becomes quite personal. With what I do and what we do. However, there's it quite often resonates you can get, you can sort of grow that network as well. And I do that as well, with the partners we work with where we know they're engaged in different clients, you know, who can you recommend that we go speak to, can I reference you kind of reference our conversation and then try and gain access that way you got to be a lot smarter these days on how you grow it's a lot slower a hell of a lot slower to work. But I was lucky that because of the company I'm currently with and I built it up from nothing that I'm well established in that area now. And as one of my clients will tell me, there's nothing that's been thrown at us we haven't managed to deliver upon. And when you meet that expectation in any conversation, you have and any form of communication you have whether or not you put a LinkedIn post, you're doing a direct mail, you know, on any form of communication or credit or webinar, it's my time is more valuable now and my home life is more disrupted. Ensure that it's very specific to that individual. I don't think the shotgun effect that you know, we used to do back in the early 2000s it really works anymore, I think. I think it's gonna be much more tailored and much more specific and a lot gentler as well. A lot softer touch. This is of interest, if it is great. If not, is there somebody else I can, do you think it will work for? Jenny  You see, that's, I mean, it makes total sense. And it's, it feels like a no brainer when you say it, but actually, I teach people how to ask for referrals. Because, believe it or not, one of the things people struggle with is actually how to ask. And particularly if you're an account management role, and you're asking your client for a referral, you know, you've obviously got a long standing relationship with them. And you don't want to damage that relationship. So there's a real fear sometimes with, you know, appearing too pushy, you know, saying it in the wrong way, getting a rejection, any tips or advice or words of wisdom for anyone that's maybe in that position? James  I think part of the, your intuition should tell you, you know, I always say go eager on everything. If you don't feel it the right time, then don't do it. And it's a pretty simple thing to do. But, but I think it's quite a British thing to do, America's much more accepting of sales. And the acceptance of the role in one of these is quite an embarrassing thing, we believe to be involved with that. But I think as soon as you accept that there should be a level of empathy. And if you've been respectful and appreciative of a person's time, they should also understand that you're doing a role and doing your job as well. And never be afraid just to say, you know, just somebody else I could talk to, and or can you put me in contact with so and so? And are you happy for me to use your name when I do it? No, okay, they'll give me their email address or whatever. Because the way that you've reflected yourself in that first conversation should set the bar of how you reflect yourself in the next conversation. Because if you're asking somebody to refer you, and you've gone in, poorly, you've gone in aggressively or too pushy, then they're not going to refer you full stop, you know, if you really want to wind up somebody in sales, then you get a call from a headhunter that's very aggressive. And you should pass the name of one of your friends or somebody you don't like and say, yeah, go get them in a conversation. But I think that and that actually, for me, for two things have really transformed everything. One is in my industry SaaS, Software as a Service, it is easier to cancel a subscription and replace something because technology is, is so agile these days, whereas when I worked at Oracle, you know, the investment level, and how complicated it was to put in place, and you're stuck. So the renewal becomes more important. And that's why if you get a win, and you get somebody that buys into it, and you make them personally successful, and you appreciate that there is something personal for them in it, then it becomes a no brainer for them to make that referral and be part of that journey as well. And I know I'm sort of jumping between that first point of contact, you know, finding the contact, reaching out getting the project, but exactly the same step throughout the process, which is whether or not business development, account management, pre/ post sales, you know, the quality and clarity of communication is what's important. And know your subject, know the industry, know the client, and reflect yourself with a with a level of credibility as well. Jenny  Tell me about those renewal conversations you have, like you said, that's a really important point. And particularly if you're, you know, what the average value of one of your accounts is approximately how much? James  I'm not really allowed to say I'm afraid, but it is publicly available information but our earnings coming out soon. So I'm not gonna say anything about that. But let's just say, yeah, it's between high six and seven figures, it's between what I worked with as well, and but it sort of becomes it to me, the value that's realised off the back of it. So we I make a very conscious effort to work with a client and get my team to work with them to help them at certain points understand what is the value of an investment, because again, it can be lost, you invested this much, what was your, you know, not just your ROI, but what's your hard and soft touch value of it. So at the renewal point, if you're thinking, well, we're spending seven figures, but we're making 10 figures back easily, or, you know, or 10, plus, you know, spending a million you get a hundred million back, that's a pretty good level of investment. And, and we can demonstrate those kind of things. So the renewal point, it shouldn't be a point of, we want it cheaper, we want the same but for cheaper, it should be very much a point of all we getting the value we expected out of the back of it, if we've done our job right, then the renewal becomes a no brainer, but but I always say up front of my first ever meeting, the renewal is more important than the land. We don't get the land right, then we won't get the renewal and for the sustainability of my company, as a shareholder in my company, as well, that the renewal become more important. It's their long term goal. And if you get that land, then you get the opportunity to meet expectation, you get the opportunity to grow or expand through that journey, then the renewal is even bigger than when it started but but with a focus on the value to the client. Because if again, if your investment levels, a client there and the return you're getting is there, based on whatever business case you're measuring against, then yeah, it's a no brainer. Oh, by the way, if you repeat that same principle across every part of your business, then your investment level doesn't accelerate as quick as that. But the savings, the incremental value to accelerate far greater as well. And often companies like in, especially in the software industry, they don't take the time to work with a client to help them understand that. Somebody who originally invested in it leaves, somebody else comes in, we've got this stuff, we don't really understand what benefit we're getting from that. But we've always been using it. And it's such an important aspect of what we do. Because when you go on from what we used to sell, which was on premises technology, let's make a significant investment, and spend a year implementing or two years implementing it and we're stuck. Now you can make a reasonable investment. And you can get in place within a month or two. And and you get value within the fiscal year. And we need to just continually measure ourselves against a client's expectation of value and I've said values a lot and value. But yeah, my core values and value monetary or intangible or tangible benefits the client as well. Jenny  That's a really good point. I've got an idea for the podcast title now. Okay. So I was thinking, actually what you said, a lot of this comes down to the metrics that you calculate at the beginning, isn't it? Like, what is the value that we're expecting to provide to this client based on the investment they're making, and what we've seen as the expected returns, and then it's about making sure that it that is visible throughout the relationship, you know, until you get to the point of renewal, because then you can prove what you've achieved for the clients. So and I think the reason I'm saying that is because sometimes in the creative industry, it's less easy to, to have those hard metrics at the beginning, or, you know, it's overlooked. So I think what you're saying is to put you in a good position, you need to reflect back at those renewal moments to say, look how much we've achieved look at what we've done so far, so that it the renewal becomes a decision that they make, very easily. James  Through the journey, just some of the products I do, they're looking for hard benefits, but a lot of the products also get intangible or soft benefits off the back of it, and they should never be ignored. I mean, in my view of productivity and efficiency gains, what can you do, what better decisions you have you made after using what we're doing? How do you better support your customer. And ultimately, within the industry, I support Intel telco, it's all about the customer journey. So the same way that I try and ensure that every touchpoint I have with my client is a certain pedigree, the best we can or honesty to say honesty is probably better, because there's things we can do and things we can't do. And it's better that the client knows that as early as possible, as well, in the same way that they try and do the same thing as well for their customers. But if you've got 32 million or 54 million customers, that's a lot to manage and support that way, but they try and reflect every project they try and do is how does it impact the customer? Does it give us one version of the customer, so that there may not be an instantly recognisable, tangible benefit to a hard metric against that, you know, a lot of that's realised after you've done it. And actually is one thing, I do see that the Americans do very, very well in their products, they'll, they'll, if they got 10 projects, they'll kick off 10 projects, two of them won't work, but the other 8 will be great. A lot of the again, the cultural difference over here is they're much more much more conservative with what we're going to do. If it already works, why why fix it? And you'll say, well, it doesn't need fixing, it needs improving. And there's something else that COVID has really transformed as well, it's given company, the opportunity now to think about where they're going to be in three years, and focus very much on what the outcome is going to be everything's about the outcome, how are we going to be able to put ourselves in a position to come out of this quickly. And not just within what I do, but everything around supply chain and supporting networks as well, are built around this, as well and intelligent, you know, individuals that I work with that are really thinking, well, I already understand what we do within our industry. Tell me what that industry is doing. What can we learn from that industry? And the thing about software companies are they're kind of a conduit between different industries, you know, we're like a central point that we work with oil and gas, work with travel and transpor,t work with the banks, you know, and and there's not that many other industries that do cover such a wide spectrum of knowledge base as well. And, again, that's the network value is, you know, would you be interested in learning what such and such does, you know, and yeah, can you put me in contact with the CFO of HSBC or something and and that's really what we're trying to add value for when I just ended up becoming a conduit. Mainly the most important thing for me is that is a it's a, it's a well used quote, but Steve Jobs said about having people that are better than him working for him. And it's the same thing I try and do with in my team as well. I understand that there are things that they do a hell of a lot better than me in different areas. And then just making sure they're able to do it. And I know we talked about this previously. And that's a sense of fun, it can be really tough, when you are under a lot of pressure to deliver something within a particular timeframe. And you've done everything you can you try to control as much as you can, and you get to the point there's nothing else you can control it is up to the client there. And then it could be out of their control as well. And you have to accept that. But through that whole through the whole journey, the way you motivate internally is important as to how you motivate externally as well. And that's the sense of passion, enthusiasm. And I go back to values. And my team know that because I'm speak so passionately about the values they're collected, they know that no decision I'm going to make is going to be counterproductive to the client. Because they don't have the targets that I have. They're interested purely in the client, My interest is my customer or my company as well, I made sure we meet our number. And, you know, I try my best to reflect that. And you know, I've been very lucky, very successful in doing so. But I always say that, especially now, we may need to make decisions in the short term that are in the client's interest more than they're in our interest. So we need to balance the scales a little bit more in their favour, make them sustainable, and we'll see the benefit in the long term. Jenny  I'd like to focus in on that on the targets that you set by your company. And also perhaps this could be tied into how you grow an account. You know, so you've got a really good client, it's huge. You've got a team working on it. Presumably those touch points throughout the relationship are what do they do like quarterly business reviews or kind of strategic meetings that you're having on an ongoing basis reflecting on the metrics on progress? Or do you get invited to client planning meetings? Or C suite conversations? James  Yeah, all of the above pretty much. Yeah. So it depends basically, where they are within a cycle. So they're seasonal, in part that they're are more important periods than others. It depends on whether or not , sorry to use the word again, that whether or not we add value in joining that meeting, and doing so we have a role and a purpose to play. If we don't don't do it, there's, you know, things that be more important to do. I'm dead against meetings for the sake of meetings, even more now that I'm at home, and you can see your day via slot, a 30 minute meetings with no lunch break or anything, it becomes impossible and managing hours worked longer. So what we try and do is really reflect, you know, get an agenda really tight on what we're doing and why we're doing it. But the other other, we call them 'art of the possible' sessions that we do quite often with C suite, which is, again, you know, what could else we'd be doing, let's use our imagination to come up with something else we could be doing. And then we pull in the relevant people from our external companies that have an expertise within a particular field to support that. The cadence is important internally as well. Because I don't feel the need to be on every call that I have, that my company has with a client, I just made sure they're all aligned to the same strategy within there as well. And I trust the people that manage that and support that as well. So but that can, that can be reflected throughout the year. But a lot of what we do is we get pulled into, we want to do this, can Anaplan do it? And you know, the thing about what I, what we sell into the service we have in the platform that was built is that yeah, it pretty much can do anything. And it's pretty unique in the marketplace, which is why we've been very successful. But ultimately it comes, we drive it right back to education, make sure the client knows how the expectation what they're going to deliver. And that's when we set up the project plan, in effect of, you know, when are we going to do the sprints, when we're going to have the reviews, you know, the scrum reviews and the different parts throughout the process. And as it's going to get busier at that point when we agree the user stories and then deliver against them, okay, we'll get more meetings and manage that follow my role is to make sure that my team are not pulled into too many meetings, that are not reflective of what they should be doing as well. And it's just everything. There's no set structure to anything, it all depends on whether or not as well, the client wants to have that conversation. So although, you know, sometimes we become a bit reactive, which is absolutely fine. And we should be more reactive at this point as well. We made the recommendation, can we have a conversation? You don't know what we're gonna be talking about, then don't do the meeting. Yeah. And that's why a lot of people in my company want to talk to my clients, they want to, oh, can we be introducing such and such and talking about? What do you want to talk about? No, there's no value and having that conversation with that individual, I can give you that information. So let's step away from that. And, and part of that's me protecting because of course, all of my colleagues want oh could your client go and talk to this one? Because we really want them to do that project. Okay, and I get that a lot, you know, 10 times a week or something. No, that's not in the my clients interested do so. But, you know, on the back of it and one of my big clients has done a number of events in the last couple of weeks. We've delivered their project we've delivered against expectation and now they're talking about it. And again, it's that's the longer goal, which is the reference out the back of it. And it's that's the mass market reference goes on YouTube goes on LinkedIn, you know, goes on The Economist, all that kind of stuff now and then anybody can see that on and guess what, then we start getting the inbounds coming through off the back of that kinds of thing, we want to find out what they did we want to learn more how I did it. And then we go back in that journey of cadence control. Sorry if I've gone on a bit there. Jenny  No, no, not at all. I'm taking notes as you're speaking, because obviously, this is very relatable for an account manager that might be listening that's working in the creative industry. And what you've said, which is really interesting, that I think we can all learn from is how do you raise your own value for the client, and what you've said, You've said a few things, really getting under their skin and understanding what their goals are, and being quite protective of their kind of time, and who gets exposure. Also, your knowledge of other industries, you know, that must be very valuable for them when they want a perspective on how other people do it if they've got a particular challenge or problem. Also your expertise, because  you've built up your expertise in one particular area, which is obviously very valuable. And then the value of your network, who do you know, who can you bring to the table? Who can you introduce us to, that could also, you know, you said I'm bringing in other experts, because I can see that they they can lend some additional value. So I think, you know, everything that you're saying here is, is very relatable for our industry as well. And there's perhaps sparks some ideas for other people to think about what they could be doing differently, to make themselves more valuable. James  Honestly, I don't really see any, if we base it in sales, I don't see any difference in in any industry or anything you're doing. I think you know, whether or not you're selling a car, or you're selling medicine, or you're selling phones or anything like that, the first thing is understand what is the value to the person you're selling to. So it's not feature function, chuck it out, I'm really big on that, I mean, when I go and buy a Telly or DVD player, and the sales guy just started telling me a whole lot of stuff that I had no interest in, I one particular thing I wanted in this telly. And I ended up just walking around doing it myself online. And that's the big difference of note that he added no value. So I didn't follow through the process. And by the way in onboarding, as well, you get to a point where you're happy to pay a premium, if you know you're going to get something good off the end of it and doing that. And that's the value. So imagine as a baseline cost for anything you're going to buy. But so the bigger reason you're buying from that particular organisation is the people. And yeah, that's all to do with the value where the regardless of what you're selling, and what you're supporting your clients with. It's the same principle. The specifics are the product. The specifics are who you're selling to, but the nature of how you behave yourself. And that's the, that's the authenticity bit that there are good people in this industry in account management, they're are not so good ones. Yeah, people can be very successful. through no fault of their own, I say, because they're very lucky, their timing, they're on point, but they sort of get found out and you get your culture, right, and your work ethic, right, and you do the right behaviours, and then ultimately, you'll be successful. And the people around you should support you in doing so as well. Jenny  Absolutely, because the end result actually is a little bit of a commodity. And for many clients, it's about the experience of working with you as well, like, Is it a pain in the ass to get to the end result, you know, you might be getting me the same business outcome, but I want to kind of make sure that that journey isn't like pulling teeth. And going back to my previous question about growing an account. You know, obviously, there are different ways of growing an account. But tell me your view on best practice when it comes to thinking, Okay, I've got a target. And I've got a really good client, we've been working for a while together, they're really happy with where we've got to what we're doing. Where do you see the growth opportunities. James  Get it right first time. So no matter what deliver on whatever you promised, you deliver on your promise you earned the right to do something else, if you don't deliver on your promise, and you don't have the right to something else. When we started we call it expand before you land because of the complexities in onboarding new clients. And because we started sharing the vision of what we were doing across an organisation when you worked with a big company, you can do that, you know, there are there are multiple entities and multiple different people. But in what I do, they all have pretty much the same core challenges. And the quicker you solve those challenges, the quicker they get value. So you start thinking what I should be doing this, I should be telling them about this, you know, that should be going to the next person because it's in their interest. And then you start realising through the whole thing. That if I go if I my company, I do a project and I save my company 10 million quid or something. It's good for my career, as well. It's in my personal interest to do this. Then I put up my CV and then I accelerate my career. And then you start realising that you this is the bit you can't fake, which is if you really believe in what you're doing, then the next thing is, is kind of like your duty to try and help the people that you're working with to be more successful. And they will make their company more successful. In doing so their careers will be more successful. Some of the people I've worked with initially, and now moved on to much bigger, better things off the back of it, which is great, because that's my ultimate goal. Because if they've helped me become successful, and I've helped them to become successful, if I recommended you a project and it fails, then it goes completely the other way. And that's, so that's part of  the truth and on itself you have and the project you're doing. And you already know that if you know what you're doing. So how do you expand from what you're doing? Get it right, have the confidence for the people that you work with is how you it's gonna work. And again, that's what I do. I have a chap that works with me, he's incredibly skilled, incredibly knowledgeable, he keeps me in check, which is, I say to him, will this work. And if he says, yes, then we know it work. And he's got that level of credibility, if it does, and we'll deliver against it. And if I see any point of failure through that process, then I've got to be on it quick. And that's the internal cadence that we manage as well, and you get it right, and then you expand successfully. And then you'll see that renewals bigger, which means that it is a much bigger system greater risk. No, it shouldn't be a greater risk, you've done the right things, the client sees the value, and they will continue. And they want to do more Oh, by the way, that person you sold to has now gone to that other company, they've now recommended us as well. If you look at the growth rate of my my company, in the last 10 years, we're went from nothing in a shed in York, was where the technology platform was written by a chap that I've known for 20 years. And a guy that I work with, when I first ever started an ex New Zealand SAS captain who, who became, you know, started this company, again, we're now listed on the US stock exchange, I forget our latest valuation, but it must be well over eight, 9 billion as well. So I was employee number 243. In six years, we're now over 2002 and a half 3000 and the growth, the hyper growth that we go through. And of course, when you grow, you're more successful, the risks are even greater, because you could lose focus. Because you could lose the reason why you became successful in the first place. The reason became successful first place is because you met the client's expectations. And they recommended you. And they recommended you internally and they recommend you externally. And they brought you with them on their career. And when they started with another company, they brought you with them and sometimes the company, but when I see they come to me, they reach out to me, James, I'm now at this place, can you come and have a conversation? Yeah, love to now I don't look after that client, quite often, they may somebody else successful. But as we all should be shareholders in our companies, either materially or, you know, the fact that we're employed by them as well, it's our duty to then support that growth continually as well. Jenny  That's a very, very inspiring story. I mean, what you've also said is that you're continually solving challenges for clients coming up with solutions, making sure that they work, and then presenting them. So it sounds like you're continually adding value. The other thing I want to ask you is given that you're given the your company's grown so fast, and so phenomenally well, how do you make sure during that hyper growth, that you do make sure that you get the right people on in your team, that they're all following the same lead, as you've just explained about making sure the ethics and values are aligned? I mean, how do you make sure that that happens? You referred to it earlier on actually, with internal, you're doing internal training to make sure that each level is.. James  Yeah, enablement, we call it and you know that again, and we do it with a buddy system as well, too, we buddy people up with other people, so they can learn from them as well. But I think either either it's very difficult, because the culture of the company you think will be is set really up for us in the US that's where the values are. And quite often sales has a very different culture from the rest of the company. So you rely on your management structure to reflect that as well. And manage downwards to support that. So all I can do is protect my little franchise, my little ecosystem, and the communication between my company and the clients that I've introduced into my company. And that makes a big difference it becomes quite personal when you do that. So the evolution of account management, from business development to account management, so it's different when you inherit something because it's an opportunity to be better than the person before, but it's also an opportunity to be not as good as the person before with me is that thing well, James has been with us Six years, he knows us, it'd become more of a challenge when somebody else comes in because, you know, they'll lose a little bit of the feeling, they can just pick up the phones and know instantly what's going on. So, I can only do that. And, you know, there will always be points where somebody will come in. And they will have their own view because of how they worked previously and a different company, and it will build change. I talked earlier about the external brand that's valuable to me, my previous company will buy the internal brand. And some people that come from very big companies coming with their internal, you got to build your internal brand. Focus on your internal brand, that's where you manage outwards, not managing downwards, I try and make sure that I'm supporting downwards, because if they're doing what they should be doing, then it's a good reflection on me as well. And that's that, fundamentally, of how I see any level of account management. But I've got people who say they work for me, they work with me, and they very much do, because they have different reporting lines as well. But culturally, as a company grows, you're not going to be able to do it. Unfortunately, you know, as your best will in the world to get the right people in that have the same values as you. And you'll see that people have been there for a long time will move on, and they will keep searching for what they have previously. And they'll find it because you know, that's why they're successful. And companies will become too big to fail as well. But as long as I'm here longer than doing this, then I'll continue to try and reflect the values that I bought into when I joined my company with the clients that I work with. And it seems to be working, which is great. And that's the important thing for me. And for the rest of the company. You know, again, I'm very lucky that a lot of people that work with me and around me have been with on the journey for a long time as well. We try and make people more vested in the company wide success through through shares, and stock as well get them reflective on that, I think is a nice to have, you know, I'm very much focused on what my target is, and, and the customer success, everything else is a nice to have. And then you just sort of hope for the best to be hoest with you there's no way to manage it at my level. If I was running the company, I could manage it. But that guy's in the US and you know, luckily, in the company I work with, I get a very strong sense of passion and value enthusiasm from that individual. So I have a huge amount of respect from him, he is walk on his way to be earn the respect, not expect the respect from his job title, but earn the respect. And I'm very lucky to spend a lot of time with him. And I have direct access to him to help support me as well to be successful. And I hope that he also and people also in our both the leadership team, see the sense of enjoyment that the people that work with me get from working on these accounts. And it was hard to start with, you know, when you when you start with nothing's happening. And you know, you, you calling everybody and everyone said no interested. But then it works, are you aware that this guy has managed to do that, you know, X, Y and Z? Oh, that's interesting. Tell me more about it. And I'll make you successful with that as well. And quite often through your career, you will not find companies that have products to sell, which are as good as some. I'm very lucky with that one, our goal at the moment is not to be the best at what we done. And, and you know, and again, it all came back to meet expectations that match the client's goals and values and continually display them and we call it customer first. As long as we show customer first and then I'll still be here. Jenny  I think that's nice to have, you know, a mantra or a saying that everyone, you know, can James  I'm probably an idealist Jenny, I'm probably completely delusional and an idealist. Jenny  Not at all? No. Do you know what it's it kind of what it says to me is that you're happy doing what you're doing. And I think with all of the years of experience experience I've had working with different account managers, it really comes down to that it comes down to culture, you said it starts from the top and it spreads down. So if someone at the top has that genuine, you know, authentic, passion, energy, and, you know, really wants everyone to succeed and sets people up for success, it really does reflect down throughout the organisation. I think what happens negatively is when you don't have the right leadership in place, because that very, very quickly spreads like wildfire. And that's where you get cultures that, you know, play the blame game and, and it's just destructive. So I think everything that you said is really, really key really this, you know, culture. the buddy system was a great tip as well, I think, particularly while we're all working remotely where we don't have that physical interaction with with each other. How do you make sure that the younger more so that the new people coming through are picking up those values? Are there any other tips, particularly around you know, the situation with how we're working remotely? Is there anything that you could share that might be valuable for agencies that are working remotely that in terms of making sure the account management team are performing at the highest level possible? James  That's a good question actually. Because the way we're working now, I know I've referenced the US a few times, but the way we're working is how the US works. It's how a lot of Central Europe works as well where physically you can't be in the same room, we sort of blessed in the UK, the fact that you can pretty much travel anywhere within a day easily to get to meet.. And the old view of gotta shake someone's hand, they're looking in the eye, no one makes eye contact anymore. This way, we're all looking looking at ourselves, and we're looking away from the camera, that becomes very difficult, I think increases the value on written communication and clarity and thinking, what would you want to receive? And how would you want to read it? Because I get a lot of, my junk mail box has gone through the roof, with material I'm receiving as well, what a waste of someone's time to do that. And what is the best way they can reach out to me, and sometimes it's been a little bit more creative. So if you're in the creative industry, you know how you do that first, every communication has to be reflective of your product, and what you're selling. So it has to be high quality has to be very tailored and very customised for those individuals as well. I think I read somewhere that 98% of cold emails are failing this year. So I my general advice is be more creative in how you find somebody and set up a first conversation, keep them short, keep them to the point. No-one's looking for a buddy, no one's looking for a drinking partner at the moment, that kind of stuff. And that's not a relationship. That's the 90s view. And there are a lot of salespeople that still have a very 90s view of it. And again, you know I worked with people at Penguin Random House a few years back, and you know, they still have a sales team that love to go out for whiskey and do that kind of stuff, you know that but that's a very different way of working, might need to edit that bit out, actually, Jenny? I think that I think what you're always thinking of is, you know, if I'm going to be in a conversation with somebody going to be trying to define the relationship, then every single point of communication, whether or not you're using LinkedIn, which I still think it's incredibly, incredibly valuable tool, but it's become a bit more of a social media tool, which has become a real issue for me. So I don't do InMails, I you know, if I reach out, try and connect to somebody, it's because I know somebody else. And you know, and and, and I've established my external brand off the back of that. Which means that, you know, I can engage with somebody within my industry, and help support them. So I look at my technology partnerships, I look at my my global systems integrated partnerships, as well as we work with and how we can support them and think, can I get you to help support me in what I'm doing as well? I mean, I don't know about the creative industry about how what that supportive structure is.But really, the first point should be in every company we don't do this enough, is to go around the people in your own team, who do you know, where are you looking for? Who can I talk to? That's the easiest one, you know, the next one is understanding people's careers I call it career mapping, which is where they've been before, where they're going, you know, how can I find out about them? And do they know, so So, and you start putting that seven degrees together. And then ultimately, everybody knows everyone, and it all comes down to that thing. Everybody knows everyone, everybody knows everything. Everybody knows when you're not reflecting who you should be, your behaviour is not conductive to proper business. And we get rid of people pretty quick. Don't be one of those people, be one of the people, that means that I want to reach out to you or want to help you. And finally, the only other thing I said that helped me through my whole career, Never be afraid. And the first thing you say is can you help me? I need your help. As soon as you say that people start listening, if you put in an email, I'll owe you one, I wonder if you'll give me a hand? And I need your help? Can you help me do that? It takes somebody less than 10 seconds to respond. So yeah, go and talk to that person. And then you go, so Never be afraid to make that may then ask because you know what they're doing in the US and the US are about a year ahead of us. Because they take chances because they go ahead for projects. And and then what we normally say is however the US is doing, we will be there 12 months later, and it happens, it always happens. But we need to encourage people to make changes quicker. And regarding the way of working on getting everyone settled into I think everyone used to it when the schools go back, I think people are quite happy not to not to have the choice to get back into the office. And certainly my clients are saying that no more than 30% of workforce will be in the office any one time. So it will change it. You know, when you go into the city, you'll be sitting with somebody and they want to make their way into have that meeting, you got to think well, what am I doing? Why am I doing this meeting? Is it a value? If I'm not doing it, don't worry about it, send them a little birthday card or something Happy birthday, but everything you do is very much I'm having this meeting. This is a value to you. And then I'm going to ask something that's valuable to me. Jenny  I think face to face is going to come as a bit of a premium, isn't it moving forward? There's a few things that you said and I'm glad that you brought up LinkedIn and your personal brand because I don't think I see enough creative agency account managers on LinkedIn in an either engaging with their current clients online if their clients are active. But also just sharing things that they're doing, updating their profile, so it looks more creative and more engaging. I think that's a really easy fix, and it doesn't cost you know, doesn't take very much time. And also not to mention being creative in how they reach out to people, I think you made a really good point about the emails or 98% of emails falling flat. Lucy Snell I interviewed her on the podcast, and she is she works for the creative industry. And she's very, very good at helping agencies prospect for new business. And what she was saying she was saying similar thing about emails and cold emails, and how, you know, rather than send a cold email, send a personalised video message that looks as if you put some effort in and looks as if you've really done your research and you've worked out who you're talking to, and why what you're saying is going to be valuable. So that was the point I was gonna make. James  My only other response to that is  my email server will immediately spam that out? With a video attachment? LinkedIn might be ok, I've never sent a video on LinkedIn. Jenny  This is the new messaging function that you'd have to get. This has been amazing. I'm just very conscious of your time. James, I, have you got any, perhaps parting words of wisdom or tips for someone who's listening to this thinking? I really want to get into account management. You know, what do you think it's important for me to do or know. James  I think, well, everything that I do, it works for me may not work for anybody else. But I think the thing I've always really impressed upon is that it's continually learning so and learning, you can make sort of make a choice from a whole load of stuff that you pick up from, don't just focus within your own industry, or whatever your own selling focus on everything. Because the founding principles are exactly the same. What works for somebody may not work for you don't do it, don't be told you need to do something, because it's a way of working. And there are a lot of sales methodologies to do, this is the important thing to slice up. And the best thing about doing all those sales training I've been on, is I take elements of them, that will work for me. And then I try and apply them as best I can, because they helped me they have value to what I'm doing. And it helps get over time management's that really difficult thing to manage as well. So I use these things to complement. And ultimately, in helping myself get organised, it means that I can be quicker to react to what the clients will require that particular time. So anybody who wants to get into account management, if I want to do that I want you to be if you're looking back at how I've been a film director, or guitarist in a band, so you know, anyone that says they're passionate about doing this, they're lying. They're passionate about Star Wars, they're passionate about football, they're, you know, they're passionate, they enjoy doing what they do. This role has enabled me to fulfil what I wanted outside of work. It so I work to live. And, and you know what, and luckily, I enjoy meeting new people. I enjoy meeting people for the first time and I enjoy learning about what they're doing. I found it credibly fascinating learning about what companies do. So if you want to learn not only about how to sell and how to support customers, about what companies do incredible tidbits about from my perspective about how companies report customer details, about where we going in technology, I do, what the future is going to be as well. I'm very lucky that what I do has helped me enable that interest and passion and enthusiasm of mine. And I did a history degree. So my goal was originally to bring the handwritten work back into technology sales, I failed miserably and they told me I would do that. The team at Pareto told me, I would fail miserably when I was 21 years old doing that. I don't think I ever I've ever written anything by hand. But my principles, well, I wanted to bring something a bit more personal to her. And I think that if you want to get into it, where you enjoy those aspects of it, of something new every day of something, you know, it's hard. It's it's hard, there's a hell of a lot of legwork to get there. But when you've managed to get there, you can transform everything. And again, Jenny, you know, what's going around me at the moment. So if I can support my family of the back of it, there's nothing more important than that. Jenny  Brilliant, that's a lovely note to finish on. Thank you so much, James. I really appreciate it. You provided so much value, so many tips. And I'm going to pull out some of these key learnings for us to take away to the creative industry. So thank you so much for joining me. James  And the best thing about working from home is I can just stress like this and get away with it. So no one cares anymore. Jenny  No, that's brilliant. Thank you so much, James.