How to use the power of 'surgical empathy' with your clients, with Dr Mark Goulston

This episode's for you if you are looking to create more rapport with your clients and build trust. Dr Mark Goulston explains why empathy is so powerful and why people are afraid to empathise in business.He talked about how you can get your clients to trust you and you'll be asking yourself are you a plus-er or a minus-er or a topper?I hope you enjoy the chat with Mark and come away with a few ideas for how you could perhaps empathise more with your clients.If you would like to receive a weekly newsletter with tips for account managers and sound bites from podcasts, and news and events then please subscribe via the Home page.Transcript:  Jenny  Well, today, I'm absolutely thrilled that Dr. Mark Goulston has joined me. He is a very sought after business advisor, consultant, coach, speaker and psychiatrist. He has such an impressive background. He's the author of several best selling books including 'Just Listen', that I'm holding in my hand here, and in the background with Mark, 'Talking to Crazy' and 'Real Influence' and 'Get Out Of Your Own Way', all bestselling books. He hosts the extremely popular podcast 'My Wake Up Call with Dr. Mark Goulston', where he's interviewed some prominent figures like radio and TV host, Larry King, leadership guru, Ken Blanchard. He's also a regular LinkedIn live host called 'No Strings Attached' and he's written for Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Business Insider, Huffington Post, Psychology Today and many more. He's the inventor of Surgical Empathy and this is a process for getting through to anyone, by going to their psychological core, and unlocking what's holding them back. He was a UCLA professor of psychiatry for over 25 years, and a former FBI and police hostage negotiation trainer. So I'm honoured to have him on the show today. I'm very grateful to Marcus Cauchi, our mutual friend who's put us in contact. Mark, welcome to the show. Mark  That's a lot to live up to. Jenny  It certainly is very impressive Mark! Can you help me fill in some gaps there? Tell me a bit more about yourself in your own words, and how you became an expert in listening and getting through to others? Mark  Well, I think it started because after my training, I was really fortunate, I trained at UCLA in psychiatry, and I had a mentor who was one of the pioneers in the area of suicide prevention, a fella named Dr. Ed Shneidman. And if you look him up, you'll see  they're almost synonymous. And he was a main referral source for me when I started out. And something that was my good fortune is that I had applied for a fellowship and just before I finished training, the fellowship was cancelled. So I just shrugged my shoulders thought, well, I'll go out there and see if anyone will come and see me. But I had the good fortune because when I would be with patients, yes I had a protocol, but I didn't necessarily have to report to anyone. And what I noticed in my suicidal patients, and I had a fair number of them because Dr. Schneider would refer them to me is, I learned to not just look into their eyes, but listen into their eyes. And increasingly, I got this feeling that what they were saying in their eyes is you're checking boxes, and I'm running out of time. And if you look basically, if you have a loved one, or a teenager or a spouse, and you look into their eyes, they're all screaming out, this hurts so much I can't take it anymore. But what happens is they scare people. And what I realised is when I was checking boxes, it was really a way to protect myself. And what I realised is if I listened into their eyes, if they couldn't come to me, I had to go to where they were. So I'll share one anecdote, which really was one of many, but this was probably the most dramatic one. When I was early in my practice, I used to moonlight at a psychiatric hospital, which means I'd cover for other psychiatrists. Over the weekend I'd meet patients, I'd go up to the wards and I'd medicate and I'd write prescriptions. But sometimes you'd be awake for 24/36 hours and so on one weekend that happened and on a Monday I came in to my office to see someone, I'll call Nancy. Nancy had made three or four suicide attempts before I was seeing her. She'd been in the hospital at times one month, two months, back then you could stay in the hospital a long time. And I'd been seeing her for six months and I didn't think I was helping her. She'd come in, that was the longest she'd gone without an attempt or hospitalisation, but when she'd come into the office, if you're me, this would be Nancy. She wasn't exactly catatonic, but she was disconnected. So on this Monday, after not sleeping, there's Nancy, you know, characteristic pose, and I'm looking out of the room and all the colour turns to black and white. So I'm looking at a room and it's black and white and I thought well, this is interesting. And then I got these chills, and I got cold. And I thought I'm having a stroke or a seizure. So I'm a medical doctor, I'm a psychiatrist. So it wasn't rude, because she was looking at me, so I did a neurologic exam on myself. So I'm going like this, I'm looking at my fingers, I'm tapping my elbows, I'm going to see if I'm having a stroke or a seizure. And then I realised I wasn't. And then I had this crazy idea that I was looking out at the world through her eyes. And that the world felt black and white and cold to her. So I just leaned into it. And the more I leaned into it, the worse it got. And because I was sleep deprived, I blurted something out, that normally I wouldn't. I said, Nancy, I didn't know it was so bad. And I can't help you kill yourself. But if you do, I will still think well of you. I'll miss you. And maybe I'll understand why you had to to get out of the pain. And I thought, did I think that? Or did I say that? And I thought I just gave her permission. I thought I just blew it. And then she hesitantly looked at me. And then she grabbed on to my eyes. I mean, she grabbed onto my eyes with her eyes. And I thought she was going to say, 'Thank you, I'm overdue'. And I said, 'What are you thinking?' And she looked at me, and she said, 'If you can really understand why I might have to kill myself to get out of my pain, maybe I won't need to'. And then the colour came back. The coldness went away. And I kept looking into her eyes. And I said, 'I'll tell you what we're going to do. I'm not going to give you treatments, and programmes that you've already been through unless you ask for them. Because if I give you all those things, you'll nod politely, and then you won't do them. And you'll come back and you'll tell me, you weren't able to do them? Would that be okay?' And she kept looking at me with a look that said, 'Keep talking. Keep talking, I'm intrigued'. And I said, 'What I'm going to do instead is, I'm going to find you wherever you are. And I'm going to keep you company there. Because you've been there alone, too long at the worst times. Would that be okay?' And then her eyes started to tear up. And she started to heal. So you'd mentioned something called Surgical Empathy. And I just gave you an example of kind of what it looks like and what it feels like. And here's something I discovered about suicide. And if you're watching or listening in, you might relate to this, and other people don't get it. Death is compassionate to psychological pain that's unbearable. So death is compassionate to hopelessness, that won't go away. Which is why people who are feeling hopeless, helpless, worthless, useless, they attach to death as something to take the pain away. And what I've discovered with Surgical Empathy, what I did with Nancy, and what I'm now training people around the world to do, is if they can feel 'felt by' you, and if you've read my book, just listen, you'll know it's about how do you get people to feel 'felt by', it's great to feel understood versus misunderstood. But boy, when someone feels 'felt', and they feel safe, they lean into it, because they don't feel safe or felt by anyone. And so, I think what happens with Surgical Empathy, is they let go of death as the way to relieve their pain, and they grab on to feeling 'felt'. So is any of this making any sense because you've been so patiently listening to me. Jenny  I'm very conscious, because I'm reading the book, Mark I want to pick up on a couple of things. You say that you blurted it out. For me, in that moment, it obviously came very naturally to you what you needed to do with her to make that change, and obviously it impacted hugely, and that was a turning point for her. And I'm sure probably the first time that anyone's spoken to her like that. That she felt 'felt'. So that was the first thing that I kind of picked up on. I also want to tell you that I've been listening to a lot of other podcasts. I've watched your LinkedIn Live, and you have this way, with your voice, that it's very soothing. And I actually felt quite emotional listening to your voice. So does that have a part to play when you want to get through to someone? Mark  Absolutely, in fact, something I will share with you and your viewers and listeners. I do a a version of mediation and conflict resolution that uses Surgical Empathy. And tell me if you can picture this? Picture a group of people, a group of executives or Board of Directors, and I actually developed this working with couples who just hated each other. So picture this, there is a group or a couple individuals, they're in conflict. And what I do with them, is I will say, 'Pick three topics that you can't talk about without getting into an argument, that need to be talked about and resolved'. So they can usually come up with those. And then I'll say, kind of tongue in cheek, 'Well, it looks like we have agreement. We have agreement that you can't talk about those without arguing and that's a good start'. And I make sure, 'Are we in agreement that those three topics need to be resolved?' And  they say 'Yes', they say, 'Great'. Now, would you also agree that when people are talking to and with people, we are making progress towards resolving those problems? Would you agree, when people are talking to and with each other? Yes. Would you also agree that when anyone is talking over, down or at another person, the progress stops. And what happens is, whoever you're talking over, down or at at, starts to tense up, and starts to want to react? Would you agree to that? Most people agree with that. And I say, great. So here's what we're going to do. We're going to pick those topics that you can't talk about. And I'm going to ask you, you parties, show me the way you need to talk about it so we can solve it. And that means show me how to talk to and with each other. And at the first sign someone is talking over, down or at another person, I'm going to call a timeout, because progress has stopped. And I'm going to take that person into another room, or if it's a Zoom  we'll do a breakout session, and I'm going to find out what's going on with that person. You know, and I'm going to talk them down from DEFCON 1 to DEFCON 5. And often they'll vent, but I'll let them vent,  and I'll say 'What's really going on? Now I understand that. But what's really going on? Why does it so matter to you that you have to get your way, and you can't agree?' And so they open up and they open up. And then I will coach them. I'll say, 'So show me when you go back, the way you want to talk about it so you don't push people away. Because, do you think the way you're talking about it is going to make anyone want to agree with you? Even if you're right, who's going to want to agree with that? You know, you're reminding people of their abusive mom or their abusive dad, no one's gonna want to agree with you. So let's practice that'. And then we'll give it a try and do the best you can. Because you know, if you get agitated, I'll bring you back here and we'll refine it. We have all day. But can you see that approach? Jenny  I love the approach. It's the 'how' isn't it? It's having agreement upfront, 'how' are we going to address it? And over, at or down, that's the rules. So I love that because everyone understands the rules, and then they can self regulate, can't they, or maybe? So I love that. Why do you think that we are so bad at listening, and yet everyone thinks they're great listeners? Because the story you described before, with the suicidal lady, was, you were first of all listening enough. And then you started meeting her where she was, empathising. So why do you think, we all think we're good listeners, but really, we're not. Mark  Well, one of my favourite quotes comes from a British psychoanalyst named Wilfred Bion. And he talked about listening and one of his quotes, and I think he was talking about presence. And basically his quote was, 'The purest form of listening is to listen without memory or desire'. Because when you listen with memory, you have an old agenda that you're trying to plug the person into. When you listen with desire, you have a present or future agenda that you're trying to plug them into. But in either case, are you listening to where they're coming from, or their agenda? And in my book, Just Listen, I use a bunch of acronyms to make something easier to remember, and I say you want to be a PAL in conversations. And PAL stands for Purposeful, Agendaless, Listening. Purposeful, Agendaless, Listening. And I think one of the reasons people don't listen is because most people have an agenda. I wrote a blog on why people are afraid to empathise, especially in the business world. And one of the reasons people are afraid to empathise in the business world is, if I really find out where the other person's coming from, what's really important to them, what they care about, what they really need, and it doesn't match what I'm selling, if I'm going to be really showing that I'm of service, and I care about them, they're not going to buy what I have. So I'm afraid to empathise and bring up something that means I can't sell them what I have. But the problem is, if you're forceful, you maybe can push something through to someone who's intimidated by that. But, boy, if it doesn't work out, or they feel that you've sold them too hard, you're not going to win many friends or influence too many people. Jenny  No, and I completely agree with you. I mean, my audience is principally those managing client relationships on a day to day basis. It's their job, first and foremost, to listen to the client to understand their needs, their business challenges, their problems. And whilst they don't have a selling agenda, it's certainly an agenda in their minds to want to help. How can I add value to this relationship? Regardless whether it's with my products and services, or maybe, I could introduce them to someone in my network, or provide a piece of information that they will find useful, any trend or market insight? So what advice would you give to those account managers that are managing those client relationships, that are going into a client meeting, trying not to have a specific agenda, but being really present? Do you think, I mean this is the feedback that I get, is in order to do that proficiently, you have to be flexible, and sometimes account managers lack the confidence to go in there without some set questions or some set agenda of some type. So what advice would you give to those maybe who are in that position? Mark  Well, here's something I'll share with you. Five of my books are bestsellers, pretty big bestsellers in Russia. And about a year and a half ago, I gave a presentation along with a Nobel Prize winner named Daniel Kahneman, he wrote a book called Thinking Fast and Slow, and it was he and a fella named Joseph Pine, who wrote I think The Experience Economy. Great people, and we all headlined. And my talk to about 1000 Russian managers, probably account managers, leaders, a whole bunch of people, the title of my talk was 'Change everything you know about communication'. And what I said to them, and there's actually a video clip, (I'll send that to you, if you want to add a link to it), I said to the audience, if I focus on what you're listening to, you're listening to me. And if I respond by giving you a bunch of bullet points, you will write them down. You'll try some of them. Most of them won't work. You'll say it'll work for him, he's an expert. Maybe one or two will work. But if I have good stories, and I am a good communicator, you'll give me your mind for now. And they're looking at me like I'm a little bit crazy. Maybe I am a little bit. And then I switched the tone of my voice. So they heard my tone, even though I was translated into Russian in real time. And I said, but if instead of focusing on what you're listening to, and you're giving me your mind for an hour, if I focused on what you're listening for. And I got it right, without you telling me and I delivered on it. You'll give me everything. And then I said, 'This is what I do, when I make presentations to some of your listeners or their companies, because it's often the same three questions. Let me see if I get what you're listening for. You're listening for something that will get you better, measurable results. Because that's what you're judged on is measurable results. And if you get better ones, you might get a promotion or a raise. And what you're also listening for is a way to get those results, that's less stressful, and more effective, because the way you're doing it now is stressful. You're all drinking too much. Your people are drinking too much. It's really out of control. And I asked them, 'Is that true? And he went 'Da, da'. And then I said, 'And I think what you're most listening for, is that I can give you tips that are tactics that are immediately doable by you. And you don't have to buy a book because I haven't written this book yet. Still haven't. And there's no course that I'm trying to sell you into. So you're listening for tips and tactics that I can give you to accomplish that, so you can get better measurable results that are less stressful. And if we do that, it will be worth the more than $500 in a day of your time that you gave to be here. Is that true? And they went 'Da da'. I said, Come on, sit down, sit down, calm down. But that was focusing on what they were listening for. So if you're an account manager, and you get a sense that the other person is smiling, but it's not a Yes, they're being polite. They're smiling. They may not want to say they don't understand what you're talking about because you're using too much jargon. They're just smiling politely. But if you're more of a seasoned account manager, you'll know that smile is not a yes. It's trying to be polite, because they've checked out. They just haven't gotten up and left. And then at the end you might say, 'Do you have any questions?' And they might say, 'No, no, I think I heard what you say' or and then you might get anxious, well, 'Can I share some of the other things we're doing?' and that's really going to drive them away even more. And, and so here's a tactic and tip that you can use from our podcast today. So picture that scenario, you're talking to them, and they're smiling, but you can tell they're not engaged. And what you say to them is, 'I'd like to pause for a minute'. And they're gonna wake up because it's like you called on the kid in the back of the class who was sleeping, 'What, what what?' I'd like to pause from it. And then you say, 'I went to the beginning of our conversation'. And you're listening, because they've never heard this before. They'll go 'Ha'. 'I went to the beginning of our conversation. And it was kind of like this. You came here looking for something and whatever, I came here wanting to sell you something. And you were looking for and listening for something that we haven't covered? And can you tell me what it was when you came here, when you were listening for something or looking for something that we haven't covered? Because we have a little time left. And we might be able to address it. If I can't handle it, yeah, there may be people I know who can help you.' Jenny  Excellent question. Mark  And so you get them to open up. And what you then want to do is get them from being withdrawn into riveted in attachment to you. And then when they tell you whatever it is, you say 'I'm so glad you said that. I wish we had started with that at the beginning. Can you tell me why that's important to you?' And then they're opening up further. And you said, 'Oh, I'm so glad you're telling me that it all makes sense.' Then here's a question. You have to get advanced in this to be comfortable. I'm comfortable with it. But I'm a psychiatrist. And the next question is 'Jeez, you've told me what you were listening for why it's important, you know, between you and me, what's really going on? And they're going to go, 'What?' And then you say, 'Yeah, between you and me, why are we doing this? Because you and I have much more in common than either of us have with our CEOs. Our CEOs, they go to another company, they're going to get a parachute. You and I just trying to make a living. I'm trying to sell stuff, you have to buy stuff, that doesn't backfire. We're like, we're peers. So what's really going on?' And they may pause, but they've never heard a conversation like this, they're going to be intrigued. And then you say, 'Can I share with you the answer I get from other people in your position?' They're going to be curious. And then you say, 'I don't know if you can relate to this, but I've spoken to others, and when they opened up to me, and it was clear that we were peers, both of us just trying to make a living, more than a couple of them have said, 'I need a win'. And when I've asked them, 'Wha't does that mean?' They said, 'You know, you get paid for selling things. I get paid according to my judgement and what I buy. And I bought some things that didn't really work out and my boss kind of questioned my judgement. What I need are some wins, where my boss doesn't question my judgement'. And then what I suggest to people, and you may lose the sale, but within a relationship for life what I'd suggest you say to the person is, 'Let's forget what I'm selling. Tell me not only what a wind would look like, tell me what would cause your boss to get a promotion and then give you one? What? Think of what's going to get your boss a promotion, or a raise. And if you're instrumental in helping them get a promotion or raise in there, someone who shares their good fortune, they're going to give one to you. So let's brainstorm what that might be. Jenny  Mark, this is this is gold, it really is. I mean, a lot of what you've just said, it's about breaking down those barriers, isn't it? And you can see when you when you play out that scenario, the depth of connection that you would then establish with the client. And I feel that more and more I'm seeing account managers communicating with their clients, through email, for example. Too much through email, and not enough verbal. Obviously, we're in a remote working situation currently, but still on video and on telephone. I don't know why they don't approach conversations more in that in that way? And I suppose on going back to confidence levels, and whether that's experience, confidence or worrying about the outcome? Are there any tips or strategies you can share around how you would overcome the internal, maybe dialogue you have? You know, they're not interested in that. How dare you speak to them like that, that kind of voice? Mark  I live truly to be of service to other people. I don't sell anything. And when I'm with people, they quickly realise that I am here to help them be as successful, have the best life possible. And, I'm not about money. And I'll tell you what happens, at least in my stratosphere, but it's taken years to develop this kind of trust from people. I've discovered that when you give value, true value to people who are very wealthy, and you don't hit on them for anything, they appreciate you because they were able to lower their guard because you weren't grabbing at them. And then they'll come back because I don't ask for anything. And they'll say, how can I compensate you? And something that I learned from my good friend Marshall Goldsmith, a big executive coach in the world, is well, you can pay me what you think it's worth. Or you can donate to a foundation that I'm connected to stop teen suicides? It's up to you. I understand when you're young, I can't do that, I got to get my numbers, and I'm not at that level. But I'm throwing a lob into your future about what you might evolve into. Jenny  That's really good advice. And your point of coming 100% from service is a good philosophy no matter what level of experience you have, isn't it? Because if you go in there with the agenda lists, no agenda, and just think I want to help, how can I help? And then you're fixed on solving the client's problem, to understand it first, and then think about how you can help. I think that's a general good philosophy, to put your mindset into more of a kind of structured and focused way. Mark  Why I'll tell you something, you know, we hear this term, the Imposter Syndrome. And what I've noticed is social workers, nurses, most doctors don't have the Imposter Syndrome. Because they're not selling something to their patients. They're trying to get them well, they have this higher calling. And I think the Imposter Syndrome in business, is if you're selling something, you know you have to get your numbers. And so down deep, you know, I care more about getting my numbers than really being of service to them. And so I'm an Imposter because when I say the words, and when I say some of these lines, which if I hear it again, I'm going to tell the person lose the line, 'What keeps you up at night?' I think that's a line that has come and gone. And what happens is people see through it that you've one to some training that teaches you to ask certain questions, that sound like you care when you don't. And I'll share something with you that I used to call the Miracle on 34th Street Sale. So some years ago, I would meet with people and sometimes it would take me, sometimes I would fly to meet them, or take me several hours to drive there, and pretty quickly, I would focus on what's truly important to them, and critical to their success. And then when we surface that I would sometimes say to these prospects, I'd say my advice to you is don't hire me or buy my product or service. This is after taking three hours to get there and they go 'What?'  I said, I just focused on what will get you a raise or make you successful. And there's at least two or three things that come to mind for me, and they're not what I do, and they're not my product or service. But I know two or three people. Now, if you don't have them internally, I know two or three people, you know, you probably should talk to and get those things taken care of. And an account manager said, 'Let me get this straight. You drove all the way here. We had a pretty good conversation. And I might have hired you and you told me not to hire you'. And I said 'That's right'. He said, 'Why did you do that?' I said 'Because as I got a clear idea of what would get you a promotion or a raise, but I realised you needed to do other stuff before you use me. And I just sold you on something much, much bigger than my service or product'. And he said, 'What's that?' 'I just sold you on a unicorn. I just sold you on trusting me. Which means I can call you back at any time as I continue to be focused on your success and come up with things that might help it'. Jenny  Lovely, that's such good advice. And I think it's really sort of setting the tone for what's going to make you successful in an account management role. Really. You describe in the book, the four levels of talking and listening, which I thought was a lovely way to understand the different levels. Do you mind spending a couple of minutes talking about that part? Mark  Sure. When we're in a conversation with another person, we can talk over them, at them, to them or with them. Over, at, to or with. And the way you know you're speaking to them is when you talk over them, they're insulted. If I gave a talk to a group and they weren't martyrs, and there was a break and I was talking over all of them, if there's a break in the middle of my talk, they shouldn't come back and hear the rest of it. If you're talking at them, people will either be scared, and they'll hunker down because you're reminding them of some bully in their life, or they'll stick their chin out at you, like, you can talk at me that way. If you're talking to them, they'll nod, this is business as usual, you've addressed their needs, and it looks like it's gonna go forward. But the gold standard is when you talk with them. And when you talk with them, you'll see that they relax their shoulders, because they can lower their guard and they feel safe. And it's when you talk with people, that things get done, as we mentioned earlier about the mediation approach of talking to and with, people lean towards each other. I'll share another exercise, which you haven't heard about. I've been rather busy and in COVID I've written two books. So one of them. One of them is called 'Why cope when you can heal?' about how to heal from trauma and not just recover from it. And the second one, which is coming out tomorrow is called 'Trauma to Triumph, a roadmap for leading through disruption and thriving on the other side'. And in that book, I talked about the huva technique. And if you practice this once a day, with one conversation that you want to go well, if you practice it for a week and make it a habit, it will change all your relationships. And you've done a very good job, by the way. So Hoover stands for, what you do is you have a conversation with someone. And afterwards you rate yourself from their point of view, on a scale of one to 10. One being lousy, 10 being great. H - is from their point of view, how much did they feel heard out by you? Did you interrupt them? Did you try to top them? Did you try to one up them? How much do they feel heard out? U - How much did they feel understood? In the way you show you understood them as you ask them say more about that. You're curious about what they're saying? V - How much did they feel that you value what they said? They remark and they see the application of it and how it could be valuable. And then A - is how much do they feel you added value to what they said. And I will tell you, you get a 10, 10, 10, 10 score. Jenny  Thank you. Mark  Beacause I felt heard out. These are not short answers and you're letting me go. I felt understood by you. Because you dipped in and you made sense of what I was saying back from me and your viewers and listeners. I certainly felt valued by what you said. And then you certainly added value by being able to pause and genuinely see the application of it. So you got a good score. Jenny  Thank you so much. Coming from you, that's massive praise for me. Thank you so much. I want to pick up on the You. You said, 'I rate myself on being understood'.  Did I say things like, 'Tell me more about that. What else? What else?' I'm finding, Mark, that when I have, personally have conversations sometimes, say for example, I say, 'Oh, I went to Greece on holiday last year'. The person I'm speaking to said, 'I went to Greece as well. And we went here and we went to this taverna and it was great'. And all of a sudden, I'm talking about their holiday. Now, I've used this example, but I'm sure the person that wants to empathise with me and say, 'Me too. I went to Greece'. But can you give us maybe... Mark  So what's happening is, I was fortunate, I've had eight mentors. Unfortunately, they've all died. The last one was Larry King. I had breakfast with him for two years before COVID every morning with a group of our breakfast group. And I was a student of Larry King. And he was just busy being Larry King. He's an incredibly curious person. And I said, 'Larry, I just discovered your magic', because I like to deconstruct how people do things so other people can do it. I said, 'Larry, when you do interviews, you're a plus-er,  you're not a minus-er and you're not a topper. So you're plus-er, meaning you're always adding to what the other person's saying, not your own personal anything. You don't give opinions. You don't give advice, but you're always having them go deeper. You're very curious. And that's a way of being a plus-er. So why did you do that? Why the green hair. Without judgement, you do it without judgement. 'You shot a lot of kids, why did you do that?' No judgement. And you're not a minus-er. You don't jump down their throat. You don't hit them with a gotcha. So people love to be interviewed by Larry King, and you're not a topper. And see, what you were mentioning is, you'll say, 'I went to Greece'. And someone else will say, 'Oh, we did, too and we saw all the islands plus we took a cruise and we made it over to such and such'. So that's being a topper. And so that's another exercise you can ask yourself. Was I a plus-er? Which is valuing and adding value? Was I a plus-er? Or was I a minus-er? Or was I a topper? Jenny  I love how you create models for everything. I do that too. And I think it's a way for everyone to remember these things, these principles. So thank you for this. This is amazing. I've been taking a million notes. Mark, tell me in your career, what has touched you the most? Because you've helped, I mean, literally hundreds and hundreds of people throughout your life. Can you talk to us about a scenario where it really has impacted you personally the most. Getting through to someone? Mark  Well, I think I shared this scenario with Nancy. I mean, that was kind of a watershed thing. I knew it was helpful, listening into people's eyes. But I listened into her heart, which which had grown cold from depression and suicide. But I'll tell you, there is a backstory. One of the things that caused me to look into people's eyes, and I'll share this story and then we're probably going to have to start to close it up, I got it back to back interviews here. But before Nancy, I remembered when I was in training, I was called to see a patient who had been put into restraints. And I was called to okay the restraints on their arms and legs and put them on anti-psychotic medication because they were pulling at their IVs, they pulled at a respirator too, but that was on them. And they were kicking. And the doctor said, 'Just go up there and okay the order'. So I go up there, we'll call him Mr. Jones, and I go into the room, and he can't talk because he has a tube in his throat. He's going 'Ah, ah, ah', and I said, 'What is it?' and his eyes are like saucers. And I said, 'What is it?' And they said, 'He's just psychotic'. And I kept talking, and I gave him a pencil to write something and his hands were tied down. And he just scribbled. And I thought, well, maybe they're right. And I said, 'Look, you're pulling at the IVs, you're kicking, you're pulling at the respirator, and we had to put your arms and legs down. And I'm going to give you something to help you sleep. And then when when you're rested, we'll take everything off'. So a day later, the doctors page me and they said 'Mr. Jones is up, he's sitting in bed, he's off the respirator. And he told us to page you'. So I go into his room. And he looked into my eyes. And he said, 'Pull up a chair'. So I pull up a chair. And then he kept looking at me and he said, 'What I was trying to tell you, is that a piece of the respirator tubing was broken and was stuck in my throat. And you do know that I will kill myself before I go through that again. Do you understand me?' My eyes just watered up. And I said 'I'm so sorry. So sorry. I understand'. So it's events like that, that caused me to say I've to do more than checkboxes and make sure I'm asking all the appropriate questions. And what I've shared with you, when you're talking to an account manager, and it doesn't look like it's going well, my version for you who are listening in, they're listening for and looking for something that you haven't covered. And so give them the chance to bring it up. Jenny  Love it. Thank you so much. Honestly, Mark, this has been revelatory and absolutely so valuable for people out there thinking about evaluating how well they are listening and getting through to other people. So I want to be respectful of your time. How can people reach you Mark and learn more about you and read your books? What's the best place to go? Mark  Well, if you go to Amazon, you'll see I have nine books there now, so you have Amazon UK. If you go to markgoulston.com, I blog a lot and I'm just sort of a content maniac. I have a podcast called 'My Wakeup Call' (wakeups one word), and I speak to thought leaders, change agents from around the world. I spoke with Margaret Heffernan. She's in the UK. She's one of the top TEDx speakers. She was wonderful. And then I have something on LinkedIn called 'No Strings Attached', where I interview my guests, and I say, 'Just give nuggets and tips with no strings attached, that meet these criteria for my viewers and listeners. I never would have thought of that. That could work. I could do that today'. Jenny  Such a lovely concept. Honestly, I'm going to include all of those links in the podcast notes. So Mark, thank you again so much. I'm absolutely honoured that you came on. And I've really, really enjoyed it. You've had me riveted for an hour now. So thank you so much. Mark  Well, well, you could sell HUVA vacuum cleaners - HUVA. You did a great job. Thank you. Jenny  Honestly, that was amazing.