Welcome to Episode 72. This chat is packed full of tips for how to be successful in the agency account management role as you transition through the levels, to become a Client Services team leader.Vicky Janaway joins me from The Gate agency and she shares with me:
- what her role entails as client relationship lead
- what it takes to be an excellent account manager and account team lead
- some tips for making the transition from account manager to account director
- why she follows the philosophy of Radical Candour when giving feedback to her team
- and she also shares some great book recommendations for those who are keen to develop their own leadership skills.
Finally, I’m really excited to let you know that my Account Accelerator training programme is now a year long. So not only do you get nine weeks of training and coaching with me, but you'll also get to connect with your peers who have also been through the training. And you'll continue to receive ongoing support and training from me throughout the year. The next programme starts on 18th October 2022 and you can see all the details here. Transcript:Jenny Plant 00:00Today I'm chatting to Vicky Janaway, the client relationship lead at The Gate, which is a full service creative and media agency. Vicky leads the agency's key global accounts and heads up the Client Partnership Team. She was also recognised by the IPA as a future female leader of the industry, was even shortlisted for the Women of Tomorrow Award. Vicky, a very warm welcome to you. Vicky 00:26Thanks, Jenny, it’s lovely to be here. Great, yeah, absolutely. So I guess my first, it is worth talking about my first agency. So I was at Carlson Marketing and joined as a graduate on the graduate scheme. And what I really liked about the agency at the time was that it was integrated. So whilst it was below the line, kind of to use old language, it was an opportunity for me to work across lots of different disciplines. So from sales promotion, to experiential direct marketing, and I spent some time in planning as well. So it was a really good grounding. But at the time when you think back, this was a few years ago, agencies at the time were quite siloed. And there was an opportunity when I was thinking about my next move was to go somewhere more integrated at its heart rather than with individual teams. So I joined ELVIS, and ELVIS being incredibly entrepreneurial at the time, when I joined, we went from 25 people to over 100. So it was a great opportunity to really flex those sort of entrepreneurial skills, but also bring that integrated thinking together. And from there I joined Engine, which is very similar, but on a larger scale, big agencies with individual disciplines. So I was the WCRS. And then it was an opportunity then to think about where to go next from there and really bring those integrated skills together. And that's what brought me to The Gate as part of MSQ. So a very similar offering, again, always integrated to being at my heart, but really seeking out those opportunities to really kind of put the brand at the centre, and make sure that the thinking is, you know, really broad. Jenny Plant 00:28It's lovely to have you on. Vicky, a lot of people listening are probably thinking, How do I get to be head of client service? So would you mind starting off by giving us like a bit of a summary of your career journey and how you got to where you got to? Amazing. So when you did that grad scheme, and you got a taste for everything, but then when you join the agencies, you've always stayed in a kind of client service role, have you? Vicky 02:18Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So it was great. I think thinking back to the disciplines, what was brilliant about it was that it was a really good grounding and respecting other disciplines. And it's something I've taken throughout my career actually, is to really put faith and trust in those people that really know their disciplines at their heart. So in the past, we've talked about T shaped people, T shaped account people, understanding your core discipline, but then being able to stretch and have enough knowledge to know who the right people are to bring in that knowledge and expertise to level up that thinking. Jenny Plant 02:48It's a really good point, actually, for those agency account managers who are listening to this and perhaps haven't had the opportunity to go on a grad scheme in a big kind of network agency. How could they get more exposure to understanding their different disciplines do you think? Vicky 03:04Yeah, I think it's a great question. And it's one that I'll refer to Tom Cruise as the analogy, because Tom Cruise has always been held up by the movie industry as being such a professional because he really took the time early on in his career, to understand all the aspects of moviemaking. And so to that end, he knew everything there was to know about directing everything there was to know about production, he wasn't just an actor, he was obsessed about films. And for us, you know, in client service, I think we have to be obsessed about everything that we do. And so really building those relationships, I think, is critical really early on. So seeking out the people that you can talk to trusted advisors and experts and really getting under the skin of disciplines that aren't just yours, but other parts of the business. So I spent when I was at Engine some time with Synergy, they were the sports marketing agency at the time, and I spent some time with those guys, which is brilliant, because I've never had any contact with that before. So really building those relationships and getting to know people and yeah, being more Tom Cruise. Jenny Plant 04:03I didn't know that about Tom Cruise. That's really interesting. I love the analogy. So thank you for sharing. So can you kind of describe to us a day in the life of Vicky in her current role - what are your key responsibilities? Vicky 04:16Well, at The Gate we define ourselves as helping our clients walk through walls. And what that means is that any problem a client is encountering will help them solve it. And so for me in my job, it's about getting the best thinking together to create world class work that will stand out, and that will be effective. So looking at the dimensions of that we've got the client relationship. So when we're thinking about working with our clients, we really focus on partnership. And we really work focused on those relationships so that we can do great work. So it's not just about a client service or account management, it's really partnership at the heart. And so my job with the team is to make sure that we're constantly fostering that perspective with our clients and that they're really seeing that we're in it together. So bringing that aspect together, part of my role also within the group is actually looking at all with all the disciplines we've got within MSQ is looking at how we bring all of those disciplines together for our clients to, again to create the most outstanding work that we can. So we work with agencies within the group, including NBA Stack, or our production facility, Brave Sparks, so making sure that we're building those relationships and that my team have everything they need at their hands to help create the best work. And with my team, in particular, in my role is very much about setting the standard. So what we want to be, you know, where we want to be hitting our targets, but leading the charge with a team so that they see us as, as we talk about the analogy of the orchestra, you know, the orchestra leader, the conductor, and so on. So we're very much at the heart of that. And then lastly, part of my role which is really important, which is wellbeing and DEI. So there's a significant part of that in terms of thinking about the processes we've got in place, but also leading by example. So when thinking about well being, something that's really important to us that we live through, in our Gang Laws actually is being able to bring your whole self to work, and actually working really closely on defining what that means as well. So it's not about feeling exposed, it's about feeling comfortable, and for people to feel that they can come to work and do their best job. Jenny Plant 06:19Fantastic. I'm just thinking about your team, they must be highly skilled account managers, because they've obviously previously had exposure to various different disciplines to be able to know from a client brief, right, we're going to need this discipline, that discipline and this discipline, and then do they remain kind of looking after those projects from start to finish for their clients, and coordinating all of these different sort of business units? Vicky 06:48Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's something that sets us apart, because we're independent. So we haven't got that network mentality of everybody being, in different buildings and different operations, we describe it as effectively everyone's at arm's reach, so we can pull the right people together. And so yes, we work together as a collective, really. So we're bringing together the team, we create bespoke teams, for each client. So every client that we've got, that's looking for additional opportunities and problems that we can help them solve or bring the right people in at the right time. Jenny Plant 07:20Something a lot of account managers tell me is the aspiration to partner with the client, like you said, we work in partnership. But sometimes our clients treat us like the order taker. And it's quite a struggle, actually, for them to see us differently. Is that something that you've ever experienced? Vicky 07:41Yes, throughout my career. I guess you've got different lengths of client relationships. So there's definitely the transaction end and the partnership end. But at the gate, for us, it's very much about setting it out at the start with our clients. So
we set that out as an intent, actually, in chemistry meetings, when we're talking to clients, we really say to them how important it is that we're looking for like-minded partners. So we talk about wanting a partnership, that it's true collaboration. And also because from that, if we set out with the same ambition, and we're clear on our collective appetite, then we will create work that creates a tangible difference. I think all too often, if we don't, if you don't set that out at the start, it can drop down into a transactional relationship. And at that point, that's when the agency has a harder job adding value, because you end up picking up the phone, solving problems, for sure. But what we're trying to unlock is that elevated thinking, as I say, when we talk about walking through walls, that's how we want to do it is by doing it as a collective in partnership with our clients.
Jenny Plant 08:42So you've dropped a really good tip there for anyone listening to set out your intention during the chemistry meeting. So it's really crystal clear. I don't know in how many cases you're sensing that the client doesn't want to operate like that, or maybe that's not even evident at that stage. So you could say, actually, you're not the right fit for us. But even so, I think if everything is geared up, the intention is one thing. And then how do you just on a very practical note, structure communication on an ongoing basis from there on? For example, do you say every year, we will help you with your marketing plan, or we will have quarterly strategy sessions, how do you keep yourself upstream once you've set that intention of this partnership? or way of working. Vicky 09:29Yeah. And there's definitely structures for sure that, its quarterly review meetings, half year review meetings, absolutely surfacing or making sure that our strategic thinking is very much upstream. But also I think it's also really simple. It's keeping the dialogue open, it's having conversations we make a real effort to have those conversations with clients and to continue building and fostering those relationships. So, yes, at the heart of it, there's rigour, but underneath it at the end of the day, the true essence of partnership is open communication. And so that's a really important part for us is having one to ones and catch-ups outside of that regular rhythm for the business in terms of making sure that the due diligence is done on the same month on the stewardship. But you know, at the heart of it, it's always relationships, it always comes back to relationships, Jenny Plant 10:14Carrying on with this theme, what for you does it take to be successful in the role of account manager? Vicky 10:21In the role of account manager? Yes, so relationships is so critical. And I think that the piece of advice that has always, really stayed with me is and it's really cheesy, is that we have two ears for a reason, two ears and one mouth. So it's listening. And you know, lots of people say, but it's so true. Because when we're listening, and we're actively listening, that's when we will get the best work for the agency and for our clients and create work that is transformative. And
when I talk about active listening, within that there's layers underneath that. So when we're actively listening, we can empathise with our clients and understand their situation. And the piece that I would say that sits underneath all that is trying to hear what's not being said. And that's so important, because sure, there's a written brief that says this is the challenge. But really working with clients and knowing them and being able to help unlock what else might be going on is really, I think, what helps elevate the work because that's when we get to the true problem. There may well be a piece of paper and a brief. But often there's something that's not being said. So, if you've got that relationship, and you've built that trust, and people see you as a trusted adviser, I think that's what unlocks things to the next level.
Jenny Plant 11:36Absolutely agree. A bit of a curveball question for you. Do you think anyone can learn the skill of really actively listening and listening for what's not being said? Vicky 11:46Oh, absolutely. Yeah, but it's practice. And it's really interesting, because it can often be taken, I think, in two ways, there's the old school style of leadership, which is direct force; here's the agency's point of view and that is one way of doing things. The other way is to be listening, and giving other people a chance to speak, allowing them to surface up new facts, uncover things that are unexpected, offer fresh points of view. And I think it can be learned, like many things, I think it can often be a course correction. So if you're somebody that instinctively comes forward and has a really strong point of view, that's brilliant. But just thinking about that course correction, and how you can spend more time just thinking, listening, reflecting. And part of that I think goes into different styles. So when we think about personality types and styles, and we've got more analytical people, more consensus seeking people, more direct people, when we're either building a team or working with our clients, thinking about how that person operates can help us unlock that active listening and thinking about what's going on for that person underneath what's being said. Jenny Plant 13:00Very good tip! Do you have any other tips for account managers? What are your favourite tips that you can share that perhaps have been the most useful to you in your career? Vicky 13:11Gosh, I mean, so many, a couple that really springs to mind. Alongside that relationship building point, which I think is so critical, that underpins it, really, and when we're thinking about partnership and collaboration, what are the aspects that sit underneath that? Two of those would be seeking solutions. So the role of account management has evolved. So certainly in my time, we've seen this real change from strategist doing strategy, project management, doing project management. This whole conversation around what does account management really mean? And
for us in terms of client partnering what does that really mean? Finding solutions is at the heart of that, because you've got excellent project management, people coming up with how we're going to make the thing happen, and we've got brilliant strategist thinking about how we're going to solve that bigger challenge, and then we're the people at the end of the phone, who when the client brings me something, we're the ones that are at the frontline. So being able to think about how to solve challenges, and then bring the right people together is a really critical part of being excellent, I think somebody that works in client partnership is part of that. And there are two other aspects to that one is being curious. I think curiosity is really, really important. So constantly looking at what's going on for the client's brand, thinking about the audience, talking to the strategists trying to understand more about what's going on and constantly, constantly looking for new sources of information, because that's what's going to help solve the problems as well right?
When things are surfacing, who are the people that you need to call to make it happen, but also thinking about that higher order thinking. So building relationships with creatives so that they know and trust that you will always talk to the client about the work and make sure that the client is understanding why this work is going above and beyond the brief and will create that transformative impact for them. So there's many dimensions I think in terms of tips of thinking. And I know that the RPA did some work on setting some codifying of some of the aspects of account management in one of their most recent reports, and the AAR, have spent some time doing that, too. And when you look at some of those lists, the same sorts of themes bubble up around, keep making things simple, being the sense maker, using curiosity to underpin that, because you're already thinking about it, being one foot ahead of where we are. So thinking, what's the next step forward? Planning and being proactive. So there are many, many aspects to it, but they're just some of the ones that I think are right at the top for me. Jenny Plant 15:42Really is a very good list, actually. And I love your point about this kind of situational awareness aspects, like knowing what's going on with the clients wider business, knowing what's going on in the competitive environment, for example, because, a lot of the time our strategists have their heads down on the brand. And if we can do some of that, looking I think it positions us slightly differently with the client as more as a commercial lead, and also for the strategist that supports them, and gives us the chance to kind of, look at that brief differently and contribute ideas. So I love that. And the codifying is a great term, actually, and being the sense maker, and simplifying things. I think that's exactly spot on. So, just as you've gone up the account management ladder, obviously, you've then come into a leadership role. At what point did that happen in your career Vicky? Vicky 16:39I think it's interesting, isn't it? Because I wouldn't say there's a single moment where you suddenly go, Oh, now, I'm a leader. It happens through evolution I guess. But significantly, for me, I think it sits around the account director level, actually, because you're starting to take control of your piece of business. A piece of advice I got was, treat your accounts as though they're your business. So think about the whole aspect of your account as being you're in the trenches with your clients. So it's your business. And when you think about it in that way, those leadership skills, you start to practice, and you're moving from head down account manager, delivery, getting stuff done, to head up account director, so you're directing, and you're moving things forward. But also to your point, Jenny, where we're talking just a moment ago about being the sense maker, and simplicity, and spotting opportunities. I think that's really important because it's a point to clarify around when we talk about entrepreneurial is that it's easy to take entrepreneurial as selling other aspects of the agency. But entrepreneurial is very much spotting opportunities. So thinking about where there's an opportunity for the client, where there's a part of the business that may need some support from the agency that's over and above the current workflow, building those relationships, understanding what's going on. That's the transformative moment, I think, when you move from being the person taking the briefs, and making sure they happen on time and delivering flawlessly, to being the person that's shoulder to shoulder with the client solving problems and deploying the team to make that happen. Jenny Plant 18:12Do you remember your time when you first became an account director, because I'm sure there's lots of people listening who are either going to make that transition, or they just made the transition, is there any advice you can give to someone that's just stepped into that role? And the things like don't do this or do more of this? I mean, you've just outlined a nice sort of overview of what the role is, but the reality for many is, some may have been promoted over a peer who didn't get the promotion, for example. So it's kind of got that internal positioning or new positioning for themselves and the advice. Vicky 18:48Yeah, and it's a really interesting one, isn't it? Because I know, certainly my leadership style is quite open. I'm very collaborative. And so moving from account manager to account director where you're pulling away a bit from your account manager peers, and then moving into this account director role is quite challenging, because they're your friends, or your friends and colleagues that are trusted, and you've got to carve out this new shape for yourself effectively. And the tip that I would give is, and I have seen it before, with people, with friends and peers when moving from account manager to account director, one of the toughest nuts to crack I think, is delegation, because you need to have the opportunity to think. So as account director, you're not just taking you're actually giving stuff, you're giving thinking time. And so,
the art of delegation is a huge shift between being an account manager. You may have account execs for sure, or grads that are working with you or apprentices and working with them but it's really at account director level and that leadership level where you're starting to guide and direct a team and learning the art of delegation, which is really hard, because when you're the account manager, you're in control of everything. So you're the person that knows the timings inside out, you know the budget inside out. And then as account director when you're starting to look after more and more account managers you're having to let go, and that's really hard. And so really, I think in terms of that tip it's practising the art of delegation, being able to build trust with people so that you can let them get on with things. And certainly, as you move up even further from account director, something that I am a firm believer in, is giving people the right support, so that they feel that they've got that support there, but allowing them to move forward and make mistakes, so that they can learn from those mistakes. And I say it to the team all the time that if it looks as though something might be happening that looks like it might cause a challenge down the line, raise it with me, and we'll find a solution because inevitably, everyone's been through it before. But letting those reins off a little bit at account director level really helps you practice that skill so that you're not micromanaging, or holding on too tight, that you're letting people, be them, but be their best selves, and bring everything about what's great about them into their role and their relationships with the client and the agency, but you're overseeing it, and trusting people to get on with it and do it and do a great job.
Jenny Plant 21:18I think that's so insightful. Vicky, thank you for sharing. Because you're right, we have to be a control freak, because that's our job as an account manager. You can't drop any balls. But then all of a sudden, almost overnight, you get promoted to account director and all of a sudden you have to accommodate someone else. So delegation, and letting people fail. And not being a control freak with them. Because we've all been under a boss at some point. And where we've got a control freak, boss how miserable that makes you, so lovely advice. Thank you for sharing that. And the other thing that we had a chat about a while ago, Vicki was, I think, as part of your leadership development, you did some training on a concept called Radical Candour. And a little bit before we spoke, I did have a look at this, but I would love you to go into more detail, just to talk about what it is why you find it useful, and how perhaps you can sort of translate some of those concepts for anyone listening that might find it useful as well. Vicky 22:22Yeah, absolutely. Well, Radical Candour is a concept that was developed by a lady called Kim who worked at Google. And she talks about this example in her YouTube video of how Sheryl Sandberg took her to one side and told her that she said "Erm" too much. And at the time, Kim Scott, she said, that she's okay with that. It's just one of the things that she does. And Sheryl Sandberg says to her, no, Kim, you don't understand. When you say "Erm", you sound stupid, you need to change it. And Kim says that actually, it was said with real care, because Sheryl could identify that it was going to hold Kim back if she couldn't move forwards. And so the concept of Radical Candour is challenging directly and caring personally. And as somebody that for me, I care really, personally, I really, really care. And that at the worst end of that spectrum and Radical Candour is a spectrum which if people look online, they can have a look at the grid. At the worst end of that spectrum is what's defined as ruinous empathy. Which is where you haven't set boundaries. You care so personally about everybody that you're feeling everybody's else’s feelings. And Brene Brown talks about it too, right? She talks about boundaries and setting boundaries and what that means. And on boundaries I think the definition is really interesting, because it's about saying, what works for you and letting people know that, but also working on that for yourself. So setting those boundaries, where does empathy start and stop is where Radical Candour really rises to the top. And it's about caring, personally, about people in your team or your clients business, but also challenging directly with care. And at the other end of the spectrum, challenging directly is defined as obnoxious aggression. And as you say, we've seen the old style of power over as its defined leadership. So Brene Brown talks about power over leadership, when knowledge is power, all of those concepts that are traditional aspects of what we might see as the kind of read style of management and leadership. But actually, this unlocks for me, for people who do care and who do have empathy with their teams. It allows a framework for you to be able to work with, to go, how much do I care personally? Very much. And how much do I want to let people know because if you empathise too much, it can lead to silence so people don't get feedback. And we did some incredible training when I was at Engine about feedback on the go, so fast feedback for people, learning from feedback all the time and gathering that feedback and being able to move forward. And that's what is so important. I think today and particularly for young, as you say, account managers and account directors coming up through the ranks. You can't wait three to six months for an annual or an annual appraisal you want to know now because you're hungry, and you want to develop so it's so important that concept of open communication, and Radical Candour being about challenging directly and caring personally. Jenny Plant 25:27Can you? I mean, obviously, when you learned about this concept, it really resonated with you. And it totally resonates with me. I've watched that video that you're referring to. And I think it's genius I really do. Tell me about the moment that you thought, right. I love this concept. I'm going to put this into practice. Could you share with us any kind of real life examples of what that actually looked like, and felt like and what did you say? And what happened? Vicky 25:52Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'll give you an example of when it occurred to me that I wasn't using it and that I was very much headed towards ruinous empathy. So I'll use that example first. I was working with an account manager, who was brilliant. She was excellent. And she wanted to know how to progress and what she needed to do. And she said, can we go for coffee? I'd love to ask you some questions about how I need to move forward and what I need to change. So we went for a coffee at a local coffee shop, and we sat down. And so she said, what do I need to be doing differently? Maybe we talked about some examples of areas where we'd had a meeting, or you know, maybe she'd done some preparation or something. And I spent, Jenny, I spent so long waffling around, ways that I thought she was great, and just trying to boost her confidence. I didn't give her any direction whatsoever. We came out of that meeting, and I remember it so distinctly, I remember thinking, I need to do that all over again. Because the question was, right, how do I progress? What do I need to unlock? And I just spent half an hour or whatever, just being very vague. And so that's for me when I thought, right, Radical Candour! this is what I need to do. When people are asking me for feedback, I need to care deeply and give them that feedback so that they can progress. And it's partly, I think, that point where I was talking about being able to make mistakes, trusting people accepting imperfection. It's reconditioning your brain, that they're not failures or problems, that that's life. That's what makes us who we are. And so, authenticity is such an important part of that of people being able to trust you to give proper feedback is so important. Jenny Plant 27:38And is it important that someone asks you first because obviously, in that scenario, you obviously reflected and thought I didn't take the advantage of that moment? And I should have said this or the other, but I didn't. And the reason I was laughing, Vicky is because oh my god, I used to do that so much myself and I cringe a little bit because I just found it so difficult, actually. Because I don’t know it’s probably a lot of mindset stuff, but in that particular instance, they were wanting you to give them feedback. Is that always necessary? When you think Radical Candour? Vicky 28:15No. So it can also be used to give feedback. So if a situation has happened, and an individual would benefit from being cause corrected, as I see it, so everyone's learning as I say, you take the reins, you loosen the reins, you let people have that freedom. Radical Candour allows you to have those conversations outside of reviews and appraisals. And it's just on a one to one basis. And it's a conversation, that's really clear, here's something that happened, here's something that I think you should consider doing differently. And being really clear about it. So that there's no grey areas or misunderstanding or what that old school approach of the positive negative sandwich, but you come away from it and you don't know whether you were right or wrong, because there were positives and negatives. It's framing Jenny. It's about framing that feedback whether it's been asked for or you need to offer it. It's about framing it as this comes from a place of positive intent. And I think that's so important. It's not about people being as Brene Brown talks about it armoured leadership, it's not about being the driving force, and everybody follow my way. It's about bringing people together and getting the best out of them Jenny Plant 29:30Love it positive intent. So it's how you do it as much as that. So this has happened. And I love the way you just said that. I think, you know, you should consider doing this differently. I mean, can you give me another example of where you did give the feedback, and it was well received - or not? I mean, what happened? Vicky 29:49Yeah, so there's plenty of examples of where I have done it, and broadly, I would say, that the results are similar, which is that people come out of it feeling relieved. Often, it's surfacing a conversation that people know needs to happen. So I find, particularly with my team now, if something happens, that it’s not gone brilliantly, I don't need to make a big deal out of it, because they already know. We're intelligent people. We're working in an industry, with peers and friends and incredibly intelligent people. So it's less about pointing out the situation but offering and advice on how to resolve it moving forward. So what's the what's the one thing you might do differently next time? How might you go about this differently? asking those questions can be really helpful and help unlock some additional thinking, and actually coming out of meetings, or one to one’s spending that time either on for yourself reflecting on how it's gone. Or asking people for their advice coming out of those meetings is also something that can really help unlock your leadership potential as well. Because you could say, for example, something like what's the one or two things I could do differently next time to be more impactful? And so we think about meetings or our performance, or how we've been, and you might come out of a meeting with one perspective, your own perspective, but asking other people can just unlock some additional thoughts. And it's those strategies that have proven to work, right. And we need to be more comfortable doing it. And it can be quite American - Radical Candour comes from America, and it doesn't necessarily sit with our sensibilities. But if we understand that it's coming, as I say, you know, we touched on a place of positive intent, how do we all move forwards? It's having the courage to have those conversations that helps move things forward. Jenny Plant 31:36Hmm, it's good. And I think what you're saying is like, do it on a regular basis as well. Don't save it all up for your six month appraisal or your yearly appraisal, because actually, it's only going to get worse, isn't it? If someone comes into that appraisal, and they've got no idea that you've been storing up all this feedback, and you give it to them all in one hit, it's going to come like a complete surprise. So I just think it really makes sense. Totally. You've given some great tips there about general leadership, and you've obviously got a huge amount of experience in leadership yourself. Any other tips that you can think of to share that will be useful, particularly in an agency environment, which because it's so fast paced, everything's happening at a million miles an hour, any other things and tips or pieces of advice you could give to other people in a leadership role? Vicky 32:27Yeah, I'm going to talk about some thinking from when I was lucky enough to go on some training with Joanna Harris, from the Courageous Leaders Club. And Jo talks about centred leadership and curious wonder. And there are two great concepts in terms of leadership thinking. So centred leadership is about courage, responsibility, conscious choices, authentic self, self esteem, and self awareness. And I think that self awareness is often misconstrued as it can be taken as you know, self promotion. Or if you're spending time thinking about yourself, how can you unlock your team, but there's a big part of self-awareness and thinking about how you will be as a leader that helps you become a better performing leader. And tied into that with this point, is where we touched on around boundaries. So being clear on what's important to you, what's your red line? What are the things that you stand for as a leader that you want your team to do as well. So I very much see myself as somebody that leads as you say with experience, but also leads by example. So there have been instances where for my team, I've been there before, and I think may have happened to me so we can work through it and find a solution. And I touched on curiosity as well. And Joe talks about curious wonder, which is, I think, just a brilliant phrase, curious wonder. And that feeds into adaptability, experimentation, finding a way forward. And I think courage as part of that, too, is being brave. That's how we unlock the best creative thinking is by being brave. And one of our gang laws is scale yourself, which is, you know, our values within the agency, which are embedded both across the whole agency, but also within account management. And that's a really brilliant one. Because when we talk to our clients about it, and particularly in new business, and pitches, it often marries up with our clients values too that they want to make sure that they're creating bold work that will create that step change because they have pressures too within the business that results in someone that needs the hit. So bravery and courage, I think is a really interesting muscle to flex Jenny that then when you're thinking about how you move forward, so that's, that's a really important part of it. And just coming back to that sense of self for a second, there's an aspect of that around self-awareness. So keeping learning, setting your boundaries and for me, working on people pleasing, so you know that being nice and being a good girl and then actually pushing forward and having those conversations is something that I've been working on and self-promotion I think is a really interesting area and topic around being comfortable with it. So I've spent quite a lot of time reading about things that sometimes hold women back in the industry, and fortunately, less so for the younger generations. But certainly, it's an ingrained aspect of society, which is that, you know many books talk about it, self-promotion for women is quite can be quite challenging because it can feel a bit gritty, and not reality, it doesn't feel very attuned with how we are, but self-promotion is so important, because it's about being recognised for things. And lots of research shows that for women who don't self-promote, it negatively affects their career development. And when we're saying self-promotion, it's about not hiding back, don't rest on your laurels. Don't think that just getting the job done this enough. Because it is important to talk to people and build those relationships and build those connections. Because that's, again, something that helps bring out the best in you and bring out the best in the people around you. Because they're learning from seeing that behaviour as well. Jenny Plant 36:09Great piece of advice, there was a great book that I read recently called The Authority Gap. Can't remember the author. Have you read it? Vicky 36:15Yes, yes, yes. Because you mentioned it to me, and I've read it. Yeah, it's brilliant. Jenny Plant 36:18It's just phenomenal. If anyone's listening, I'll put the link in the show notes. Going back to that point about self-promotion, I think you're absolutely right. A lot of women, we struggle with it. And we I mean; I have to because it's my business. And if I want to get my business known, I have to do a bit of self-promotion, which actually it doesn't come naturally deep down. So any other tips or pieces of advice that maybe someone's listening, thinking, Well, I'm not actually or maybe I'm not self-promoting? How could I do that in a practical way? Vicky 36:51Well, self-promotion is an interesting topic that's covered in the book. There are many aspects that underpin it. Primarily, we know that research shows that when girls go through school, they're taught to be nice and get the job done, and kind of not ask questions. And boys are on the football team or the rugby team. And they're encouraged to collective team sports. And there's a lot of reinforcement that goes around that. And we do see that coming through. And there's lots of evidence from, I think McKinsey have done a report. And there's lots of evidence on Harvard Business Review and Deloitte that talk about this aspect. And so girls very much get their head down and want to be recognised because they've done a good job, and possibly perfectionist traits. So if I do everything perfectly, people will notice. But actually something that I think so true, particularly for us in account management and that is touched on in the book you mentioned, which is that companies don't just make great products and assume that customers should want to buy them, they have a marketing function. And in the same way, we should see ourselves as marketing ourselves, and being confident in ourselves, being confident in what we do, and promoting ourselves because of that. And when I say about the layers that sit underneath that, it does require some work to think about what you stand for. So what are your values? What's your mission? What are your goals, and then when you've achieved those goals, talking about that with people and looking to elevate that, and building goals around the things that will help you progress. So not just sitting back and waiting to be noticed, but taking ownership of who you are, and helping that move you forward and serve you better. Jenny Plant 38:22Very good advice. One of the things I get to chat to account managers about, I build trust with account managers, they can tell me anything. And I do get a lot of downloads from people thinking at the point where they're struggling, or they're frustrated. And I often try to empower them to go back to the senior management team to make suggestions for how things could be different. So I use the kind of the three-column analogy just I say , right let’s take this problem, whatever problem it is, and think, Okay, what is the problem? And then the next column is what's the impact that that problem is having, maybe, on individuals, on the business, on the clients, etc.? And then the third column is, what are a couple of suggestions for how you think we could be doing this differently? And I said, even type it up in one slide on a PowerPoint and just ask for senior management time and just say, Look, I'd just love to have a chat with you, 10 minutes to run something by you. I've got some ideas. Which shows that you're proactive anyway. But you're not coming with a big problem and moaning about it, you're coming with a few solutions. And if you've been in the trenches with any kind of problem, you probably know what the answers are anyway. And like you said, I hope that people listening to what you've just said, Vicky, it's important that you do self promote, and this is not self promoting this is just having a voice. So don't sit there and suffer really. So I think it's a good concept to talk about, and I think we should probably be talking about this more or I feel I should. But listen, I am just conscious of time Vicky and I'm so grateful to you for sharing so many tips, this has been amazing. Can't wait to get this out. But finally, I'm just interested in your thoughts around the future of agency client service, you did mention at the beginning about old school, and the new way of doing things. But any other thoughts about what's going to be coming up for us? Vicky 40:21I think it's continuing to demonstrate the value of the role. So we've talked about this shift of strategic thinking and project management pulling away from account management. When I was at ELVIS, we did a huge amount of project management and strategic thinking, and we wrote the briefs ourselves. And it's great that we've got people that are able to specialise on those things. So demonstrating the value of account management continues to be really important. And the way that we demonstrate that, for me, in particular, at the gate is this shift towards partnership. So client partnership, so actually reframing the language because client service sounds submissive, and account management sounds like you're just moving things around. But we absolutely are not. Because we add value at every single stage. So when I talk to people when we're hiring, and I say part of our role within the team and within the agency, is yes, bringing all those aspects together. When I've talked with the AR, we talked about this concept of you know, the orchestra conductor, or the maître d. But actually, I think it's more than that, because it's you're central to everything, and driving, everything forward is so important. So client partnership, because it's that aspect of bringing the creative, the strategy, the project management, delivering on time, that's what elevates us and gets us to great work. It is proving that the role is so vital in getting under the skin of what's happening. That's what we have to do. And we talked about spotting the opportunity. So continuing to do that, and making time for that and valuing it, and being curious and asking questions and asking questions. So the future of the of the role, and how I think it will be shaped is to continue to level up into that partnership aspect. So very much being as I said, shoulder to shoulder and partnering with our clients. Jenny Plant 42:10Yeah, I totally agree spotting opportunities, bringing more value, because ultimately what that's going to lead to is an outcome for the agency as well, which is additional revenue. So the more that we can be helpful to our clients. And it goes back to what you said at originally, about listening, you've got two ears. And the more you listen, the more you understand your clients world and challenges, the more you're able to bring that value. Do you think that we should be changing or considering changing the name of client service? Because you're right I, I think the same thing, it's very submissive sounding. So your title is partner, isn't it? So what do your team called themselves? Vicky 42:51Well, so we are kind partners. And actually, I spent some time talking with the AAR about the job title. And, quite bluntly, clients don't really mind. And so philosophically, for us, it's about what's at the heart. So in a way, the title itself is less important, but the philosophy about what sits behind it is really important. So our philosophy is about client partnership. And our philosophy is about being a true partner in the agency to create the best work. And whether you're a partner title, whether you're a client lead, whether you're an account manager, whether you're an engagement manager, or an activation executive, they're helpful signifiers within the agency, that recognition of hierarchy in terms of moving up through your career, which is important. But actually, it's that philosophy that I actually want all of my team to be client partners. You know, we're all partnering our clients from the grads and account execs and apprentices right the way up. We're all partners, our clients, and we, are the face of that when we're partnering and seeing our clients on a regular basis. But everybody has that within their heart, because that's what's going to set us apart and create great work. Jenny Plant 44:03Amazing. I do think that client partner, even though maybe the clients don't care, you know, either way, but actually I wonder what impact that has psychologically for the person taking that role. Because it's almost like a constant reminder for you how to be. So I love the fact that you said it's the philosophy that it encapsulates. So I think it's worth thinking about. I've had various conversations with different agency owners about titles. But yeah, I'd be interested to kind of explore that a bit further. Vicky, is there anything that I haven't asked you that I should have done or any other tips that you can share? While I've got you just as a parting few words of advice for anyone listening? Vicky 44:43Yeah, there's one piece of advice Jenny that I think really unlocked things for me, which was there's lots of talk about mentors and sponsors and coaching. And there's a brilliant book called "Do You Coach You" by Helen Topper and Sarah Ellis, which is worth putting the link in the probe in there of this one, which people may have seen. But what's so great about it is that it helps you coach yourself. So you can work through the systems and tools that a coach would do with you. And also in the book that we touched on as well. There's some advice around peer coaching. So peer coaching is having a framework that's coaching based, so thinking about how you can move forward things you might want to unlock, and so on. But doing it with a peer in a structured way. Often we go for a glass of wine, we vent, and we might talk about something. And that's great, because it's cathartic. And we you know, we're getting things off our chest and solving challenges and thinking about how we move forward. But if you take that coaching approach, and you do it with somebody that you really trust, and Brene Brown talks about people whose opinions you trust, and those whose opinions are less important to you, the ones who you trust, you should be able to fit on a piece of paper that you fold, and you take with you and then five people and I've got five people on my list. And they're the ones that are effectively my peer coaches. And one of them in particular, I spend time with where we worked through the things that I would do with a coach, but with someone who really knows me, and whose opinion I really trust. And so you don't have to wait for a coach or try and find a mentor or try and force fit a relationship because those people are already there. And you can help them just as much as they can help you in a peer to peer coaching relationship. Jenny Plant 46:21Thank you so much for sharing that. And those tips. And you know, what's really evident for me, Vicky, you said something about your leadership style ages ago, you said, I do the behaviour rather than talking about it. And what you've just demonstrated, I think, for everybody is how well read you are and how much you've developed yourself. Because the fact that you can rattle off all of these sources of information that you've spent time investing in, I think that's a really good example for everybody really invest in yourself, get these books, the ones that Vicky has read, because it's testament to how far you've come in your career and what you're doing now. So thank you for that. And just finally, this has been so useful if anyone's listening, and they'd love to kind of reach out and have a chat. Who would you particularly like to be contacted by? And what's the best place to reach you? Vicky 47:11Oh, well, that's a great question. So anybody that wants to find out anything about anything we've covered, I'm so passionate about it. As you can tell, there are loads of different tangents we could have gone on Jenny that I'm very happy to talk to people about and LinkedIn is great, because it's a brilliant platform and tool. I'm very happy to talk about any of these topics. And like you said, we went off on some tangents. But I'm so passionate about it that I'm very happy to talk with people. And LinkedIn is great. So LinkedIn is brilliant. If people want to get in touch with me then LinkedIn is perfect. Jenny Plant 47:48Wonderful. We'll make sure we're putting the link in the show notes. Vicky, thank you so much for your time. This has been really, really good and valuable. Vicky 47:55Thank you, Jenny.
